Sympathy for the Villain.

The thing is - doofenshmirtz is not actually a villain, he's just as much a protagonist as Perry, maybe even more

Yup

He is a wholesome man who is obsessed with the idea of being a villain, but even then he limits himself to only the tri-state area

or better, kingpin from spiderman that scene where miles defeats him in the spider verse is amazing

Even though he's a villain, he cares for her daughter

@Simperor Bubba _link even then he doesn’t actually want to take over the tri-state area, he wants to almost take it over but have perry the platypus thwart his evil plans and curse him and do it again the next day

Man vs Family? He had such a bad past, and even though it appears everybody rejects him, he really does care for his daughter and would do anything to make sure she doesn't have to feel like he did when he was young.

S H E ' S S I X T E E N

Yeah his mother didn't show up to his birth very sad

@TBK_Official I'm German and the only real german word in Doofenshmirtz is "doof" but I thought about it and it actually sounds similar to "doof in Schmerz", which would basically mean "fool in pain" (it isn't grammatically correct tho cause "doof" is an adjective)

@Holy Cow absolutely

He was like Vanessa said "A nice guy pretending to be a bad guy"

i agree

Same with Catra

He only do bad things to show his gadget to his friend Perry

He's also petty, hilarious, and terrible at being evil. I love him.

plus, because of the neglect he faced as a young child, he makes sure to love and provide for vanessa no matter what.

I know, poor mans parents weren’t even at his birth 😞

They made 10 year old me feel bad for someone I was I thought I was supposed to hate.

When he was born, his parents forgot to show up

no no, he's only mad because he forgot to buy the self-destruct button one time

@Simperor Bubba _link even then, it's only to take it from his brother to show his parents that he's capable as well.

batman is not a villian he is somewhere in between. Did Batman let his darkness dictate his actions? Yes, but he used that anger and hatred for morally good actions but 'these actions are 'bad' in the eyes of a law thus making him a vigilante

He’s a normal guy, who happens to have a knack for building evil inventions.

@Holy Cow aww ur so sweet T•T having someone comment that is like the sweetest feeling ever tyy <33

@khu5hiツ :>

vanessa made him realise that he wasn't really a villain, he was just a nice guy pretending to be one.

@Simperor Bubba _link He kind of reminds me of megamind, a guy who thinks he is evil, but actually isn't.

His family hated him so much they gave him a name worse than Eugene

There’s no one who doesn’t love dr. doofenshmirtz

That’s a good one

He never crossed me as a villain type. More of the village idiot.

Yeah i think he's jewish too.

I've always loved Dr Doofenshmirtz he was funny and very sympathetic I remember screaming as a kid stop putting self-destruct buttons on your machines like why would you put that there I understand now because it's a kid show you got to sort of keep that dynamic going but as a kid I will always just yell at him bro stop

@Holy Cow loo

I could see him like a cry for help, he could do awful thing but he only ever bothers his brother and ands self destruct buttons an every “weapon” he makes

"We'll never understand psychopaths"
Me, sb who understands both parties:
Are you sur about that

That's very superficial, but not implausible

"my mother didn't even come to my birth"

@George Uferov who says the protagonist cant be the villain?

Man vs. Nurture

@George Uferov explain?

@kookoo i just notice doof and perry has a somewhat similar relationship with batman and the joker

I recommend you watch Batman under the red hood sad scene

Name a character who has a more traumatic childhood than dr.D

I would t call him a villain more of a "wannabe bad guy" although he did do "evil" actions in his heart he was actually a good person who did bad things
His evil actions were rooted in deep childhood trauma like:
Being acknowledged as an object by his parents
His brother getting all the attention and being the apple of his parents eye
Neither do his parents arriving for his birth (serious)

He did his best to be a dad and he was in fact there for his daughter and supported and protected her all the way even though he was going through hard times with his wife

I mean half of the doofs inventions I'd buy in a heartbeat lmao. Alot of his inventions wernt even for bad causes, like bright ass sign being right outside his window. Anybody would want that thing gone

@George Uferov His own daughter, during the events of the series finale, called him, “a good guy who convinced himself that he’s a bad guy”.

he may be a "villain" but he's the greatest Dad you can ever see

His parents weren't even there at his BIRTH. What!?

Dr. doof is a great father to his daughter and a good husband to his ex wife i mean his ex wife has nothing against him

Embarrassing top comment

@George Uferov Protagonist doesn't mean hero, and antagonist doesn't mean villain. He is a mad an angry scientist who just wants recognition for his genius and to live his life without wallowing in obscurity. But it doesn't change the fact that his primary method before ultimately deciding he'd rather just hang out with his main foe and best friend was global Tri-state Area subjugation.

And Perry kinda gets it.

either or

Not really, you empathize for the hero because you can relate to them more often. I can't relate very well to being a psychopath like Chigurh, or killing people like joker. You sympathize for them because, although you cannot relate personally, you can feel bad and understand their motivations. There are exceptions though, like Zuko. But empathy is commiserating on a personal level, and sympathy is for commiserating based on your viewpoint.

@Beplex Chigurh and alot of versions of the Joker are pure evil, those are not sympathetic villains. More sympathetic villains would be guys like Vulture (MCU), Tai Lung, Magneto, Darth Vader

@José Luis Yeah, I sorta just threw names out there

The people already have responded well to this, but I also wanna add, that the title seems like a very obvious reference to "Sympathy For The Devil", a classic rolling stones song, sang from the perspective of satan. Or maybe it's just a coincidence, but it's such a well known song that I doubt it.

@Aleczen You're probably right, he's into that stuff and I would totally make that sort of reference myself

both should be felt in any case lol

@where's my rooptoff True

That makes no sense.

I believe that you are wrong

Sympathy is to willingly suffer with those who are suffering

@Ceice No, you’re wrong

if you dont fell bad for zuko then idk who you are

Thats only the asperger/schizoid social rejects such as me who cried in the theatre for Joker because I saw the man as a mirror into the future of who I could become if things became even worse with me. I personally related to more than a few scenes... Now that I think about it, seeing that movie might have affected me way more than I cared to admit until now. I was disliked, made fun of and bullied throughout all of my childhood, the COVID shit was a fucking blessing for me because I had an excuse to lock myself away from the world that seemingly hated me for no reason at all or at least for one I could never understand... I had an excuse to not interact with anybody because people only ever hurt me. I threw a fit the day when COVID "ended" and I was supposed to go back to school physically, I refused to be seen by anyone and risk the chance of embarrasment or being mocked by strangers and being looked at on the street for unknown reasons probably relating to appearance... one day I will either snap or get the strength to anhero myself at last...

@Okabe Rintaro Don't go nuts man, otherwise you'll wind up the villian and hurt people. Just hold on, it's a mad mad world but giving into it doesn't fix anything.

@incinium z Thanks, man. I’ll try.

@Beplex Sympathy is to pity the villian
Empathy is to relate to the villian
I can't relate to being half burned by lava and revived in a techno torture suit but I can simply sympatize with Vader's Pain. I can however empathize with Joaquin Phoenix's Joker's Journey through his life and empathize with his road to villiany and chaos.

I searched empathy for this video

i think he wanted to reference that one rolling stones song, and i also think sympathy makes more sense

@Aleczen Yeah thats what i was thinking

@Gabriel Is Ant How? Sympathy is feeling sorry for someone but not understanding how they feel. Empathy is feeling for someone because you understand or trying to understand them.

You can feel bad for the villain

It’s both, depending on the villian

@Kodah Yong In these cases I'd say no

That’s basically Batman’s view of Joker. He has went through pain and suffering, yet he still doesn’t kill him.

Of course, the consequences would be dire, such as Jason becoming Red Hood and eventually dying.

As others have mentioned here he is probably referencing the Rolling Stones song "Sympathy for The Devil" which actually starts playing at 1:18 (although this is an 8-bit version of it).

Simple and accurate, the truth.

Its even more funny because the Joker is a socialist wet dream revenge film.

Joker is overrated, it is not as insightful or transformative as it pretends to be when you look at its writing and story. And i personally believe that parasite, the movie that won the Oscar that year was a far better social critique and a better movie in general. However i will say that Joaquin Phoenix's acting was an amazing accomplishment and a career high.

@omnipotentbanana prove it

@Sid Lukkassen lmao who did this? I must have missed this during the time

@omnipotentbanana
Parasite sucked. I walked away from the movie deeply dissapointed over how it under-delivered.
Or maybe I'm bigoted against South Korean culture, I dunno. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

@Mousazz A lot of people disagree with you, but its a matter of taste, and perhaps a personal connection to the topic. A young white american man is almost always going to relate more to joker than to an extremely poor south korean family. That's not bad or good, its just human nature, we typically appreciate things more if they speak to us personally.

@Wrong Thinker No, socialism is just any system where the workers are the ones in control of the means of production. Many socialist ideologies are very explicitly anti authoritarian, both the concept of libertarianism and anarchism are originally left wing. That being said I am not a socialist myself, you just don't know what socialism is. There is not a single influential American politician who is a socialist, so i don't think it's something you have to worry about. Both Bernie and AOC are social democrats, which is a capitalist ideology that just has a bigger focus on welfare.

@Wrong Thinker If progressivism was not accepted by the mainstream public, people wouldn't vote democrat, as the only real differences between the democratic and republican parties lie in how they approach cultural issues, with the Republicans taking a more conservative stance and the democrats taking a progressive stance. When it comes to issues that actually matter like foreign policy and economics, they're essentially the same party.

@omnipotentbanana "REEEE not real socialism"
Good job proving my point.

@Wrong Thinker Real socialism doesn't work, if anything i think the positions of AOC and Bernie are far more sympathetic than those of communists and socialists. Since i live in a social democracy myself. But they are quite objectively not socialists.

@omnipotentbanana thanks for suggesting parasite. i enjoyed that movie, its unrealistic in some parts but it was cool to watch

@Wrong Thinker That's how it most often turns out. Even though i find your worldview repulsive there is no denying that socialist states historically almost always end as failures, that is why I am not a socialist.

@omnipotentbanana Oh no, the guy defending an ideology that killed over 100 million people in less than 70 years, without counting the results of warfare, thinks I'm bad? Whatever shall I do.

@Tembie G Great leap forward was Mao's China. Why don't you get through middle school history before you try to lecture me on anything.
Also, really? That's literally deaths on the level of WW2 except during peacetime
But go ahead, tell me how concentration camps are just cultural differences.

@Wrong Thinker emphasis on why I said etc. Also go figures I should've expected the "educate yourself, 100 bajillion dead" rebuttal would have been pulled out almkst immediately. And even if that were true why would it have mattered. Where are all these stats even coming from anyhow cus I'd like to see some primary sources that aren't just tallying up every single death that happened from disease and famine and going "100 million dead"

@Wrong Thinker yep thats the internet spectacle I was hoping for. As fresh as it is stale. Thankyou for bestowing upon me the chance to consume your words.

@Tembie G And of course, the usual "I'm gonna run away soiling my diaper but pretending I won" shtick.

@Wrong Thinker Fucking love this shit man keep going your putting a giant smile on my face as we speek.

@Wrong Thinker Yeaaaah thats the stuff.

@Wrong Thinker what is the CPR?

@Arksiane China.
Good job catching the typo.

@Wrong Thinker username checks out

Isn't it true for anyone of us?

@Tubin Hage No, just the psychopaths

@Wrong Thinker It applies to you as well

I fucking love the media. Portraying the Joker like a ticking time bomb where violence could occur if the movie was released.
And all it did was make people dance down some stairs. One fight broke out at the theatre and it was blamed on the Joker movie, yet it had nothing to do with that movie.

funnily it was a bit of ARG marketing for the movie

@Wrong Thinker name checks out

I thought it was just a average movie. Not sure why everyone loved it so much??

I’m glad that the media reacted to Joker (2019) the way it did.

It proved the movie right.

they just hated it because of what happened with batman in aurora colorado that one time

the joker wasn't as political as people think, it just shows how mass/serial killers are made

@Wrong Thinker damn you're really living up to your name

@I Warned You actually there have been successful socialist revolutions, the zapatistas and revolutionary catalonia both had success. Catalonia eventually fell due to external issues, but it stood strong for years. Also, many civilizations before recorded history practiced a primitive form of what we now call communism. The invention of currency eventually led to the system we have now. Anyways, this is all proof that communism can work, although I would personally like to see a first world country pull it off successfully before I'm fully on board. Regardless, moving left is the future we're headed towards. All of our peers in Europe are transitioning, and we will likely be next.

@Astrospect It is definitely a socialist wish fulfillment movie 100%. And unfortunately the dialogue from the joker is really fucking terrible like it’s really bad he’s so cringe he to listen to and it’s not even the performance it’s just the actual words that come out of his mouth you could never take seriously

@omnipotentbanana It depends on how progressive you are. Not being racist and outwardly bigoted is mainstream, sure, but hating white people isn't mainstream... yet.

@Wrong Thinker dude you're not paying attention. He has said explicitly that he is not a socialist, and hasn't once defended it. Can you read or has the paranoia finally driven you insane?

@poopy pants i can take it seriously as someone who's fucking mental ya know? I really liked the movie myself.

@Astrospect > defends socialism
> "I'm not socialist REEEE"
Can you not be an insult to tapeworms?

@Wrong Thinker you're like Alex Jones levels of off your rocker, and the funniest part is that you think you're clever, when literally everyone is laughing at you lol.

@Wrong Thinker there is a difference between communism and socialism and democratic socialism. i dont even endorse communism or socialism but you sound like a typical 4chan/reddit guy.

That's why most "hero" super movies are actually based on the villian, but with layered sarcasm. The "hero" in "hero" movies are always an A-hole, displaying himself as the "good guy", this is all charades for the public ofc. The good guy never wins, only in movies. That's the whole internal joke about it.

fr

With the Joker you actually understand his point of view. Also, it’s amazing how much people are attracted to the other psycho charisma.

@omnipotentbanana ur good, my english teacher would love you

@StuffZ Well said.

@Mousazz based

@Wrong Thinker alr bro lemme give you one in your style
"Fuck the world everyones wrong im right LNAOLNAOLPLLLLOLOLOOLLLOLOLMAOLMAO!!!!11!11!1!"

And even though it was brought to everyones attention again in the form of a movie almost nobody has changed from it we truly live in a society RIP

@ericmm13 It's funny when worms try to imitate humans.

@Wrong Thinker 🤓

@ericmm13 That's really cool and all, but I'm not a stand-in for your dad.

@Wrong Thinker what way to stand for your name

@Tembie G 6 million

Yiddle me this, yiddle me who, who cries out in pain as they strike you?

@Wrong Thinker i have to say my man that bait is incredible, id put out some myself by agreeing with you but ima see how long yours keeps working

Pooh

@Mousazz its because parasite was an anime before getting a korean adaptation which they took out a load of story and plot for the sake of a shorter run time

“The elite” oh come on

@Red Tide what are you talking about

Critics: Thos movie is bad because it encourages violence!
Public response: Man we should be kinder to others and be more responsive to mental health because we never know what people are going through.

@Astrospect joker has nothing to do with socialism but nice bait comment

@The KYLE Projekt it's literally about the working class and disaffected rising up against the rich. You don't know what youre talking about.

@Astrospect No. It's about the lack of compassion and understanding people have for each other, and refusal to step outside of our societal roles, hesitating to help others in their time of need. The perfect example is when the downtrodden social worker understands Arthur's situation but refuses to go the extra mile to prevent the downward spiral she knows is coming. When the rioters herald Arthur, they don't do it because they actually care about him, they do it because he murdered rich people. The lack of compassion between the rich and poor goes both ways, just like real life. And in typical Joker fashion, Arthur doesn't participate in the sociopolitical struggle backdrop, he rides on it.

The media was the villain.

@Red Tide Peter Jackson did the same thing with LOTR. Thankfully though there are the extended editions.

Finally, it's here...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpKUSHZBREM

@Wrong Thinker Defending the ideology? He quite literally said that socialist states are complete failures, which is why he ISN'T a socialist.

@Wrong Thinker God, you really are a wrong thinker.

@I Salt l Ok fashie

@omnipotentbanana sorry but Joker was way more iconic, I can't even remember Parasite and I've watched it more than joker

@RED Parasite was a better movie. It had better cinematography and directing, and better acting by everybody except Joaquin

@omnipotentbanana Parasite wasn't a good movie, it was forgettable

@RED I dont care if you didn't like it, from a filmmaking perspective it was an objectively better movie. I can also claim that avengers endgame is a better movie than full metal jacket, and I have the right to that opinion. But its still wrong.

@omnipotentbanana I'm sorry but you don't have a fIlMmAkInG pErSpEcTiNg 💀 everyone forgot it after it won an award.

what anime was this if I may ask?

nvm just looked it up, tokyo revengers right?

Similar idea to the finale of Taxi Driver, which heavily inspired Joker. I won't spoil the ending, but I highly recommend you check it out.

Bro you have to see "Attack on Titan"

@Devnath Hansda what does aot have to do with this

@gavin I think he is talking about the current state with eren and how the tables turned

a bit far fetched haha

Cabbage man, the greatest character ever

True

@The Jungle ah yes the most villainous fiend of all, the melon lord

y e s

@The Jungle Sokka, we know it's you Toph is blind

My CABBAGES!

@The Jungle even toph agrees. twinkle toes is annoying

@Deli yes.. and weak

@Eddie3642 why there will never ever be a character as perfect as cabbage man

zuko was the villian in really only the start of the series not so much in the end, and he did it only to please his father, right? and let's not get in to the comics

Indeed

I was reading this very seriously WTF

"I make a living off cabbage. I grow the cabbage with only the best fertilizer, and every day I carefully tend and water them. When it is time, I harvest the cabbage and put them into my cart very carefully, gently so as not to damage them in any way. I have a family, a wife and two kids. We are very poor, some days we barely make it. The cabbage is the only thing keeping us alive. I cart the cabbage cart around, praying and praying someone will buy my cabbage. Cabbage is not so popular nowadays as it was in the past. While my children are strong, my wife is weak and soon became deathly ill, starving. Every day I come home with the day's work. Somedays it's nothing, so I have to take one of the precious cabbages, the only cabbage I have left, small and not yet ripe. I peel off the leaves, feeding them to my family, ignoring my own hunger. A few months ago, I was selling my cabbages near Ba Sing Se. A kid, with no care for others, knocked over my cart, dirtying my cabbages until they were almost unrecognizable. I had nothing for my family that day. The kid kept on showing up, I think he was following me. The demon continues to knock over my carts. Yesterday, I went home with nothing, only to find my wife dead."

@Casper_The_UFO
That's one of the saddest fanfics ever.
Keep 'em comin' 👍

cannot agree more

HAHAHAHA Nice One

I also love how, eventually, Aang sees Zuko. not Zuko as a villain, just Zuko

Zuko isn't even a villain. Ozai? Yes. Azula? Yes. but when zuko was hunting for the avatar, he wasn't even really aware yet of the implications. he kept finding himself at crossroads until he finally realized what's important and what he wanted. zuko is easy to emphasize with because most of us can imagine ourselves in his shoes. all he knew was the fire nation and being the prince, he was intelligent and naturally talented but outclassed by his sibling. he refused to fight his father like anyone would and he was young and that's all he knew when he was hunting for the avatar. his role wasn't even to constantly terrorize aang, he also freed him at one point while still planning on capturing him. he was also slightly below Aang in bending skill so it wasn't even like when Zuko showed up that we felt any panic for Aang or felt a one sided beatdown was about to happen. (think about naruto as examples of that) plus the rest of the gaang was there too. he was literally barely a teenager sent on a mission to regain his honor within the only life and world he's ever known. of course he'll have some rage inside of him and take awhile to learn what iroh was trying to teach him, spiritually, emotionally and intellectually. even when he was trying to capture Aang, he still had a moral compass. so really i don't see how zuko was ever really a villain in avatar. it's not like he had some scheme, he literally jus wanted his father to accept him and didn't even understand how important the avatar was to the world.

you are the true man of wisdom

You think aang is the true villain simply both of them are the protagonist of there story and have antagonist of there story so how does that make aang a villain

@Faris Faiz okay you did not get the joke im sorry

@EinName is it legal to like all three comments from u the guy above and the guy who replied first here?

no no no noooooo whyyyy!!! it doesn't matter whos point of view we look through it doesn't change the fact that zukos intention to capture the avatar and send him to his death. is wrong and makes him a villain. you can sprinkle the wet shit with sprinkles of sympathetic reasons but doesn't change the shit core reason from being shit.

@Jimmy stevenson I don't think you even read my comment.

I feel like noooobody is understanding the joke like my god y'all are writing whole paragraphs. Chill

@RosePatsDog "its just a joke bro" gtfo

@Boody Jacob I did read your comment, and explained why I believe it to be false. At the end of the day its not about screen time that makes the villian its the characters own actions. Zuko trying to capture aang and bring him to the fire nation where he would be killed. is the action of a villian. Aang could have been a total stranger and we still shouldn't be happy to see zuko do this to just some bald kid. it doesn't matter whos point of view we are looking through in this story.

ok but i think that zuko was never the villain even in the first season zhao was the villain. i always think of zuko as the antihero

@Ryan x exactly!! i've always just seen him as the antihero in earlier seasons definitely not a villain

@Ellinor Maxwell nah man. No matter how you slice it zuko was the main antagonist of season 1 with zhao only coming later in the last half

im in his cart, and im scared

@OneRandomCabbage RUN AS FAR AS YOU CAN

@akinacrid I GOTTA ROLL

MY CABBAGES

what does a merchant have to do with magic

@ହାଇପରବୋରାନ ଚାଡ୍ What

When you are content to be simply yourself and don't compare or compete, everyone will respect you. -Lao Tzu ❤️
⭐️ Check out my content ⭐️

True

@Jimmy stevenson You are the physical manifestation of the energy in our spirits that gives us the ability to face palm.

New book: Mein Kabbages

Imho Zuko is not a villain in ATLA. Ozai and Azula are the real villains.

LMAOOO

@Dawid Stawowski ikr exactly

If you watch it from zuko’s point of view Aang and his sister are the villains

@Noah Davis yea

That's because antagonist and protagonist simply mean that one tries to stop the other, not neccesarily who's good or evil

@Itsyaboijavi oooh true true

@Sanchu Dunce

@Casper_The_UFO Don’t forget that cabbage man made cabbage corp

true. Good and bad is from the perspective

that poor man

Don’t forget about Kora

@Devnath Hansda AoT sucks

I just keep moving forward.

Lmao 😂

Aang reformed the country and from that he got his own gabbage company, so he is thd good and bad

@The Jungle sup toph

Until the fire book of course when they were both the good guy

@I ams Smrt what about cabbage mans child in korra or at least I think it's his kid he looks exactly the same and it takes place 30+ years

:( poor cabbage merchant

Tru tru

Bro, there are no true villains

😂😂😂

Not to mention the cabbage merchant’s struggle to grow from a single cart to an entire Cabbage Corp, which was then destroyed by Aang’s next incarnation.

@Devnath Hansda why you comparing an anime to a cartoon

If you watch from the cabbages’ point of view, the cabbage merchant and Aang are two different but opposing villains and Zuko is uninvolved

@Ryan x Ozai feels like a more Hardcore Zuko and Azula feels like the absolute worst case scenario Zuko (season one Zuko)

Truer words have never been spoken

bro he got done dirty, man.

I mean why is Aang the true villain, he really didnt want to kill the fire lord guy and he didnt

lol

@Devnath Hansda Kinda was sad Eren didn't get a chance in this vid

I've got one frame with him holding a cabage

@gavin prob about how from the enemy's point of view eren and his friends are all evil

It's been a while since I've seen such a good comment.

That's is so true I totally forgot about that just brought back alot of good memories :)

@gavin in aot, well at 4th maybe 3rd season, theres no good sides, theres only evils

@Ryan x I think Zuko is a rare example of an antivillian tbh he's the only antivillian I can think of off the top of my head actually.

"everyone is the hero of their own story"-hansome javk

I did not see that coming. "from the cabbage merchant's point of view" LOL.

It's all about the point view

true.

Underrated comment

I love this reference it's so pure.

Actually Aang is not the villain, the Platypus bear is

LOL

Indeed

@gavin SPOILER ALERT FOR AOT(sorry 😭) :
I believe he means if perspectives were switched we'd see the entire show differently. About how the Eldians see Marleyans as "devil's" and vise versa. They both disagree with each other but simply because of the fact that neither are perfect we have a hard time on knowing who to side with. Although in the beginning of the show we thought that the titans were the villains, but after finding out that they are humans some of us now see them in a different lighting. If something that was once innocent was created into a villain not by choice than who are we to say they are necessarily the "bad guys"? Humanity continues to make titans as a weapon which can be seen as evil and even a little genius. Using the common enemy to defeat the personal enemy is a pretty good play, not morally right but still.

@Noah Davis just not true

Haha so true 😆

Try watching Attack on Titan, I can guarantee you'll have sympathy for the villains in it by the end of the show, that is sympathy for whoever you decide the villain is

@Good lad It's quite confusing exactly who the "main villain" is but Eren Yeager is quite understandable from what I have seen of attack on titan

what is also notable is that in his last moments after his duel with Obi wan on tatooine in Rebels, he has this soft almost calming tone when he asks about "he who will save us." It was almost like for a very brief moment, we saw maul for who he truly was and not who he was forced to be

Maul was always controlled. Some person was always one step ahead of him. Kenobi, Sidious. This is why fell to his demise.

So your saying the villain itself is overused a bit?
Makes sense to be honest

I was actually just thinking "If old black and white, straight up evil villains are now boring, that means at some point, the morally grey villain will be overused too, and straight up evil will be new again"

Nowadays people are more concerned about villains being “morally grey” than they are of them being well written.

@Dr. Zaius Dr. Zaius Forgive me for what I'm gonna say.

That's why I love Kira from JoJo, he's morally awful, being a serial killer that steals women's hands, but he's written so well that makes it enjoyable to see his personal life and his philosophy about living "a peaceful life"

Sorry for relating it to JoJo, but in a discussion about realistic villains, he's perfect. He actually feels like a real person, not just "I'm evil and want to take over the world"

I think this is somewhat true but only because 90% of "gray villains" are just 'I'm a little sad boy so you should feel bad for saying my 500 murders were wrong' instead of actually interesting studies of people and the way we treat each other for what reasons

Morally gray villains are the most entertaining because they force you to think. They aren't going anywhere. One note, evil for evils sake villains will always be around as well, but they will always be less engaging and less interesting, as you aren't challenged in any way and instead are left to gut reactions to their actions. They leave you with nothing to chew on.

i feel like this is an osp point half transcribed so i wanted to add another little bit:

This comment kind of touches on what can happen with a lovably horrible villain, but there's a deeper point to consider here. Think about it this way. A morally gray villain being relatable is half design. They're meant to get you to ask the question "Is this person really evil?", because their villany isn't all they are, there's a little bit of white in that gray by definition. It asks you what your morality is by asking you what you see when you look at that grayness. whether it's more darkness or more light, and what you choose to believe about the character from that.

However, a completely evil villain who's so much fun to watch that the audience likes seeing them work asks an equally interesting question: why do you like this murdering psychopath? This character isn't part light, there aren't any redeeming qualities in there by design. They're killing and torturing people, but the jokes they make and the little flair in their actions is... fun, viscerally and painfully, but still fun. It forces you into thinking about your morality more head on, because now it's not about why you focus on the good oarts and ignore the bad parts, it's about why since there are no good parts, you ignore the bad parts. It asks what your morality really is to love seeing this kind of thing so much.

@William Kim So basically every in the Bad Place from The Good Place
They're all demons that exist literally to torture bad people, yet they're so goddamn fun to watch
Shawn is downright deplorable as an entity, but he's a fantastically written character

this is why when i read berserk, i think griffith felt unique despite having very little moral grey area. he’s an amazingly complex character, but is still largely considered to be a PEV, which felt refreshing.

Glad someone agrees with me on this

I agree, not every villains has to have understandable "for greater good" motivations or even a tragic backstory. Some of the greatest villains ever are pure evil or close to being so: Hans Landa, Anton Chigurh, Joker (Arkhamverse, Nolaverse and 1989), Scar, Judge Claude Frollo, Koba, Syndrome, Louis Bloom, Palpatine, Voldemort, Kilgrave, Green Goblin, etc

hades from hercules be like

hi yes id like a full 60 minutes of you talking about this please

@José Luis Belloq from Indiana Jones

I wish grey villians just made themselfs think that way. Like a certain mindset they made themselfs made them evil. They could have a good life, but still.

Thoughts on handsome Jack as a villain?

I think Melkor from the LOTR universe is kinda what you are talking about. Melkor simply hates, his defining feature in the begging of the silmarilion was that he loves to corrupt once good things. I can't seem to explain why, but Melkor has always stayed in my memory as a villain, even though he is quite one dimensional

This is why Azula is one of the best villains ever created

appluase

@Astrospect Let me first say that there's no such thing as a truly "morally gray" villain, both because both term contradict each other and also because the term "morally gray" is a paradox in and of itself. I think what you're more getting at is an "anti-villain" type character that has relatable motives but is still an antagonistic force in a story. Even these types of villains, however, are rarely if ever written to make the reader "question their morality." In my opinion, "pure evil" villains and more relatable villains aren't really any more interesting than one another as a rule, they're just different ways to tell a story. Palpatine and Darth Vader are both incredibly iconic and widely-loved villains for very different reasons from each other, to bring up a "normie" example.

@José Luis Syndrome is the definition of a villain with a tragic backstory just doing something to get revenge/prove a point tho

Adrian Veidt (Ozymandias) from The Watchmen was a good gray villain. So is Mr. Freeze from Batman the Animated Series.

@Astrospect Exactly

Attack on Titan tackles the grey best in my opinion as much as I want to make a good vs bad I just can’t

One thing that people seem to forget about the PEV is that they absolutely exist. There are those that have no qualms doing vile things ‘for the lulz’. As interesting as grey villains are, we need to remember that the PEV is just as real.

I think the problem with both of them is the fact that, even though some get yourself to question if they are truly bad, the concept of "evil / badness" is never questioned itself. Even with Anakin!Darth Vader this concept was nearly not explored enough. You could've easily gotten more into the question if what Anakin was doing when going over to the dark side was a good decision. This would've required more of a unreliable narrator aspect to the story, because most people would answer the question above with no, but I think it would've given the story more depth. But most importantly, it would have given you more Empathy for Anakin!Darth Vader. Simply because you yourself could one day make such a decision.

This is basically what EmpLemon says, though.

Also probably the car accident scene is there to show that even Anton doesn't have that much control as he thought he did and that he even has to ask some children to help him in order to escape

@Nikolor yeah and he keeps on insisting for the kids to take his money so in the end he feels like he had some control

Nice hypothesis

i think you missed the point that because anton is a delusional man (basically a crazy person), his killing is like a natural disaster, if you ended up in one its your fate, your luck deals a bad hand and there are no reason for it whatsoever

The greatest enemy we would face would be our own self.

same man

Sr Pelo 👀

lol 2 comments

You know Emp has outdone himself when motherfucking Pelo compliments him without any sort of mockery.

Just genuine admiration for the content.

But damn this video really is good

Ahaha "Tabu"

Se escribe ''Taboo'' en ingles, Señor Pelo.

is very nais

I know I'm probably gonna get a lot of shit for this but fuck it who cares. I thought this video was mediocre at best. By now we're all kind of used to the concept of a 3 dimensional villain. What he's talking about is nothing groundbreaking. I thought the way he needlessly shoehorned mainstream media bad into this was very forced. I'm not defending mainstream media btw i know it's dogshit i'm not an idiot so don't come at me with that shit. I really don't understand why he put so much emphasis on the joker movie and why he acts likes it's some big relevation that media dissapprove of it. Ofcourse they would. The movie spends half it's run time criticising the captilist system that the media profits off. John Wick is a stupid shooty guns movie with no message so it's obvious why the media would not give two shits about it. The media have always been dissapproving of movies with contriversial political messages. This is nothing new.

Just get a room already

lmfao pelo

Merry Krimas and Happy New year Pelo
Thank you for your contribution to humanity :)

Now kiss

It's so weird reading something from you which is calm and coherent because I keep reading it in your voice, screaming at every word.

what an epic gamer

UwU

TRUE

@Sir Shark bruh

Wait this guy speaks English? Last time I heard him, the only two words he could say were "HuniePop" and "EËEEEEEE"

yo

@Fzgh Yeah I mean it's weird that he commented on this.This is definitely one of his weaker videos.

Yeah like gypsycrusader

and big floppa

Lose some bingus

A good villain has character, nuance and power

This isn't taboo

MOKEY MAN IS HERE

opal

ok jontron

wtf are you doing here

PELOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Hair man

Right??? lmao

hey, Sr pelo! happy new year!

how is this video taboo

this is here just incase there is 500 comments i would like to say haha cringe you cant comment? oh where you late? next time hit the notification bell.

You look like that Mexican "Nito" candy bar.

PELLOOOOOOOOOO

BLESS ME TIO PELO

@Fzgh shoulda made this a comment

Ay!

Handsome Jack

IIIIIIIT'S KRIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIMAAAAAAA

Hey it's the krima man

That's not spooky, that's wholesome.

SR PELO! PELO IS-! PELO!

I agree whole heartadly.

you are villians too you making fun of animator

Mokey is already live long enough to become a Villain

^insert pelo scream here^

My screaming brother, I have found you once more!

Same man

IT KRIMAH

Eyyyy como esta peloooo

GIVE US BACK THE DISCORD

​@Fzgh You read my mind. EmpLemon is the king of making obvious commentary and disguising it as "deep", I used to like some of his content but I can't barely stand him now, he reaches so much. Btw, this random dude saying that he loves villains because "they have a background" might be the most hilarious thing I've read today.

@Fzgh John Wick is probably the most realistic stupid shooty action movie I’ve seen.

PEPO

scream man is spitting truth

yeah, antagonists always tend to be more likable because you understand them. it makes me wish more protagonists had a reason for saving people.

damn you here too, nice

This isn't taboo though..?

i'm the 69th reply lol

I broke the 69 replies

@The New Kid in The Kingdom I hope both sides of your pillow is gonna hot and not cold

@sulpher bratigh no u

Pelo... us mokey a villan or hero?

🧐🤔

Titan Oof

I don’t know why Sr Pelo randomly commented here, but fuck it, that’s awesome lmao

never thought i'd see sr pelo have an actual coherent thought

Hey its funi cartoon man

its the hispanic afro man !!!

Oh hey dude

loud afro man!

hi pelo, how's spooky month series coming along?

Ayoo pelo watch ya doing here back in 2020

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My brain automatically read this out in Pelo's voice.

how were you villainized?

Well for some reason, in movie he was depicted like bad guy, but in mythology he was maybe one of goodest gods.

mythology is dumb tbh although it has dumb funny stories.

You are at 69 likes so even though I would like I cant

"MY CABBAGESSS!!"

Dat poor man
Each day his cabbages gets destroyed

ik this is a joke but op REALLY said that a dude who had an abusive father had worse pain than: a child whose entire people, family, and culture completely wiped out, a girl whose mother died and almost had HER culture wiped out, a boy whose father left him to go to war and had to be raised by sister. i know zuko was a complex character with complex pain but oh my GOD

@bee though you do make a good point, i still consider Zuko's to be the worst, all things considered...

LMAOOOOO

@Flame U had to take it that far lol

@Eni And then Cabbage corp gets framed by future industries...

@LPC his choice of doing business was bad luck

i think azula had it pretty bad ;-;

and zuko’s sisterrr :L

@Amanda Rose Mcintyre That girl lost everything. Family, friends, title, accomlishments, freedom and even her sanity.

@bee I still think Zuko had worse pain than Katara and Sokka. 1. Katara and Sokka's mother died, but Zuko wasn't with his mother either. They were forcefully set apart from each other. 2. Katara and Sokka knew that their parents loved them so much, while Zuko knew his father hates him. For me having a parent that never loves me is worse than having a dead parent.

@bee I think everyone faced their fair share of issues in Avatar, 100 percent. But the thing with Sokka, Katara, and Aang was that they always had allies or people helping them their entire life. Sokka and Katara always had a full tribe supporting them, and Aang had Team Avatar and the Airbender monks having his back.

All Zuko had was Iroh, and due to how badly his father raised him, Zuko almost entirely ignored Iroh because to him he had been conditioned to think any form of mercy or compassion was seen as weakness and incompetence. It was shown that perfection was the only way to succeed, such as with Azula.

It's just my opinion though.

@Perplexum ik :)

too true

lol, His CABBAGES! 😢

Aang’s entire family and clan got genocided.........

but the fire nation took kataras mother, that's more pain

him and his descendants are forever cursed to get their business destroyed by the avatar

My man just wanted to sell his cabbage, but nooo he couldn't even have that.

Don't even make me bring up Iroh and "Leaves From the Vine"

And azula

this vid bed now

Ok but are we forgetting that Aang’s entire race was wiped out? Their origin is completely gone, they can still be Airbenders as shown in LoK but they’re from Earth Kingdom origin. I get that Zuko’s life also sucks but like- 👁👄👁

@Flame OH GOD

@bee there’s a difference. Having your culture wiped out is extremely traumatic, yes, but it’s a different kind of trauma. It’s less personal, and it’s not from someone who’s meant to love and care about you, and it didn’t happen to them personally. Zuko never had any love from anyone except his mother, which was taken from him, and his uncle, which was only after he got exiled (he was almost non existent throughout his childhood). Zuko wasn’t just neglected, he was actively hurt time and time again by the one person who was supposed to love him. It was extremely personal. He was then made to think he deserved that hurt and abuse and had to work to get the love of the person who had abused him. Through achieving what was thought to be an impossible task. Trauma isn’t a competition but you can’t deny that zuko’s was extremely bad. Katara, Sokka and Aang were all loved and supported to get through their issues and trauma, whereas zuko was left to hurt and blame himself for three years, and the rest of his childhood if we’re honest. Also, in the show you never really see zuko talk with anyone about it, he’s left to work it out himself.

TLDR; zuko wasn’t just ‘a dude with an abusive father’ he was someone who received intense, personal trauma and 0 support to get through it, as opposed to the other characters. He never really felt loved and was hurt again and again by someone who was meant to love him more than anything

The cabbage seller is the best reoccurring meme in avatar

@LPC We do not speak of that show... I mean the first three seasons were great, but the fourth....

right?! smh.

didnt the cabbage guy get like, his own corporation or something in LOK?

@bee wasn’t sokka oldest

NOOOOO!!! His cabbages!

-Azula has entered the chat

NO CABBAGES! ONE CABBAGE SLUG COULD RUIN THE ENTIRE ECOSYSTEM OF BA SING SEI

@bee Yep. this is how humans work...always this sick victim mentality competition complex "My problems are worse than yours" "who has the most pain!?" No, we're all equally suffering. just in different ways... and even if someone "had it worse" it doesn't invalidate anyone else or villainize them.

Aang is literally the last of his people.
Everyone he has ever known before being frozen is dead killed in a mass genocide meant to wipe out his people because of his existence.

But ya Zuko's pain is worse

@Mr. darkchocolate let' s get to 6969 likes shall we?

@the ragebringer yes

Of you know Aang having his entire society and culture completely wiped out

It was really tragic

I personally think that Bosco suffered the most pain because he had to deal with the earth king and his disgusting wife until she died

or Aang who lost his entire people and culture due to mass genocide...

Guts: XD

Maybe he should've hid in the SECRET TUNNELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

@Mr. darkchocolate 9 more let’s let dark chocolate over the moon baby

You're laughing, a man lost his cabbage cart and you're laughing.

That poor man suffered much

May his cabbages rest in peace

@AlphaTengua VENTz It isn't even NEAR true that everyone suffers to the same amount of intensity, but I can absolutely see where you're coming from and I agree for the most part. What we've suffered through shouldn't be the main focus, our own actions should be.

MY CABBAGESSSS

This make anime villian in both akamegakill and MHA

If you like villains because of that, you should look about Megatron or some of the Decepticons in the IDW Transformers comics

@Kingawesome521 Not just them! Magneto, Dr. Doom, and Mr. Freeze are just a few villains that I can think of right now! This may be why I always considered whenever they said "YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ME!"

@UkieKooki What was Dr Doom about?

@Kingawesome521 There's this comic about Doom's tragic history because his mother is a witch and she sold her soul to Mephisto, the literal devil in Marvel, so he learns both science and magic during his adult years. After obtaining the suit of armor, he returned to Latveria, his home country, and created a resistance because the ruler of the country is making everyone poor while he becomes richer from their expense. After overthrowing the ruler, Doom became Latveria's new ruler and made the country into a paradise of prosperity, freedom, and security. But Doom still remembers his mother and so he went on a mission to try and save his mother so he tries to create portals in order to go to Mephisto's realm and save his mother. Doom challenges Mephisto and he accepts but it came with a price. Whenever Mephisto defeats Doom, his people will slowly hate him and fear him. So stubborn as Doom is, he gets defeated by Mephisto over and over. Keep in mind that Mephisto is in his strongest when he's in his realm. So Doom enlisted the help of Dr. Strange to save his mother. Doom and Strange succeeded but when Doom's mother entered the mortal realm, she became very evil. With Doom's multiple defeat from Mephisto, Latveria grew to hate him and that's how Doom became an authoritarian dictator in the eyes of his people. I don't want to spoil the whole ending but I really do recommend reading it yourself or watch a youtube video about the comic because it is really good and really sad on Doom's part.

@UkieKooki Now I want to see that as a movie or something. Also apparently in the IDW continuity the Avengers, Spider-Man, Dr Doom, and GI Joe share the same universe with the Transformers and I have heard from fans that this continuity has the most insane/diverse character development down to even some of the most bland characters from different continuities.

@Kingawesome521 Really??? Well I do plan on reading the IDW Sonic, maybe I should check out the IDW Marvel ones too! Thank you for recommending!

@UkieKooki Well honestly I think I only read one IDW comic and it one in middle of the timeline so it was confusing to understand what happened and all of this information was from other sources like YouTube or wikis. But yeah looks like IDW makes some interesting stories.

@commanderyammarkkasrkin MV especially MHA

@error_n0t_found agreed... (If politics and media is number enemy)

I found it quite irony how Japanese make good villian as western villian is good at politics or media

@commanderyammarkkasrkin MV lmao thats true

Agreed

Not every villain is like that, though. And it's good to have a large variety, as long as they're well done the villains are as good as the heroes imo.

Welcome to Pandora kiddos

@error_n0t_found IDW? MHA?

"they think that they are protagonists of their own story"
no, they ARE the protags of their story. Every person is the protagonist in their life's story.

07

@Rocky Croods at Same time judge by how your comment i thing the you better say that to Kathleen Kennedy and other SJW, why this people never let us we no need their politics correctness we just need better entertainment not some politic

In the famous words of handsome jack “everyone thinks their the hero of their own story”

well they are right

@commanderyammarkkasrkin MV aye

This is why people support Trump. Excerpt we're all protagonists of our own story and they all give it up to a villain.

Honestly you just cured me from liking villains forever. They're evil for a reason.

@Krystal Myth Same with us don't force people for you SJW/politic propoganda remember what Chinese did, not just Hong Kong or Tianmen square the Chinese just want an culture revenge against western imperialisme

@Al W, IDW comics is a comic book company that’s been making Teenaged Mutant Ninja Turtle comics and Transformer comics since the 90’s to now, and MHA is short for My Hero Academia which is a superhero manga series popular with normies.

@ʙ ᴇ ꜱ ᴛ ᴇ ꜱ ᴛ You get it. There is no right or wrong it's all subjective honestly. Chances are every single one of us is the villain of someone elses story. The way we perceive the world is completely unique and there's literally not a single thing all our realities have in common

@Rocky Croods How ? I mean I don't think of myself as a hero personally so maybe I get where you're coming from but you're not meant to take that quote literally I think. The way we perceive others, ourselves and the world in general is entirely unique to us. There are no rules, there is no right or wrong and there are no heroes or villains

@UkieKooki That's fucking amazing never knew that.
Makes me wanna read through a whole audiobook of his story.

COUGH Sinbad from Magi COUGH. He's litterally a protagonist of a prequel sshow but seperate enough to be its own show. Although the ending was rushed, I can't even think of him as a villain but as an antagonist. If you haven't Check out Magi, An amazing manga with world building unparalleled excluding One piece although there is a fair bit of fanservice so be warned

Yet their actions still bite them back in the ass anyway.

I'd suggest the video about villains from PlagueOfGripes, he explains the story of Nox, who is a wonderful villain, because no matter what he does, the countries wiped out by him, he believes he can turn back time by sacrificing all those lives and in the end no one will ever know what he did, he was the hero in his mind.

They are...

Wreck-it-Ralph a good "bad guy". Turbo/King Candy a bad "good guy".

Edgelord

@Pale Reaper He just said the definition of an antagonist,he ins't a edgelord

@chickem i disagree

@Pale Reaper when you just wanna spread hate because you can

@carcass feather hate? all I did was call them an edgelord

@Pale Reaper bro edgelord is someone who is all about that edgy stuff like "i dont have a heart or a soul", not someone who says the definition of smth

@carcass feather that’s what you think

@Pale Reaper bruhhh, go and search up the definition of edgelord, why are you so persistent that you are right about it?

@carcass feather why do you care?

@Pale Reaper sound like an actual egelord

He still kills a bunch of people. He just evil with a calm demeanor.

@t.j._ edits they didnt really specifically talk about him, just the definition of antagonist,,, maybe they are talking about him or all of them in general so

Yeah I think an antagonist is just someone who generally creates conflict, whereas a villain is more specifically evil.

@Pale Reaper edgelord

@Pale Reapereeeeee, what was the point of your comment again? I'm getting confused.

@Pale Reaper are you really that ingnorant

@Marius Ceaușu got em

True

@Pale Reaper edgelord says pale reaper

What about Anti-Heroes? Is it different from an antagonist?

@carcass feather you already ratioed him its fine

@Kattzen The anti-hero is different from the traditional hero.

@Mr. Friendship huh. In which way?

@Kattzen Anti-heroes are a type of hero who has cynical views and has a lack of what traditional heroes have (e.g. bravery, loyalty, all-loving, respectful).

@Mr. Friendship so... heroes who are "lack of moral compass?"

@Kattzen Right.

@Pale Reaper hows he an edgelord that’s literally the definition of an antagonist, thats like like 5th grade level vocabulary

So like Megamind?

@Pale Reaper You are the edgelord.

By such ideology, a mass murderer or slave/sex trafficker is not evil. Just opposes the ideologies of the protagonist.

@PiratedContent >huey pfp

@Pale Reaper what?

@PiratedContent what?

@Jay Harris
Uh... Please note that I didn't exactly emphasize on the "antagonist" so I'm not sure why you're trying to start an argument with a hypothetical statement. :/

@seraphica I was joking lol

Yeah, and you can have villain protagonists (perhaps more accurately called antiheroes but that's a different debate) and heroic antagonists. It just depends on whose story is being told. Riddick, for example, is pretty nasty but has a moral code that helps people get behind him but I wouldn't say that his antagonists are generally of greater character than he is.

I find the Joker fascinating, because I think most young men in this day in age know the feeling of being outcasted by our peers.

@Jay Harris That's not true. In reality and where morals are concerned these people you have described are objectively evil.

You can have a protagonist of a story that is inherently evil: they commit debauchery, kill with complete disregard, have no compunctions about manipulating and abusing others for power, etc. This utterly twisted protagonist can then be opposed by the gleaming brilliance of a morally good antagonist.

Those two terms do not carry an inherent moral weight, simply a function in a story.

@C Vernon Two cases to be brought up for this in western film are Heat and Public Enemies. Defining the cops chasing the main characters as villains is definitely incorrect, but they are clearly the antagonists of those films.

@Pale Reaper my man, you are called Pale Reaper. You can’t call other people edge lords.

@Dead Man bro I am drunk as heck right now I can’t even comprehend this

we see this in death note where L is the antagonist, but not the villain.

@Pale Reaper saying edgelord never looked more like a edgelord than this

@Pale Reaper Edgelord

@Pale Reaper you still an edgelord? I hope so

@MMM idk 🤷‍♂️ but I’ve quit drinking so that’s a plus

@Pale Reaper not really

@Pale Reaper good for you then

@Pale Reaper you just wanna try be cool lol calm down fella you literally have reaper in your name and are tryna get people against you

@Jay Harris no, they stated what is the basic beginning of an antagonist they don't have to be a batshit crazy killer or anything

@Hemlixx trynna get people against me? no, i was just saying what I felt like saying

@chickem P.R kinda right tho.

@Pale Reaper edgelord

>states the definition of an antagonist
>refuses to elaborate

Did you really just say ideologies? Reddit cope.

I thought this was common knowledge

yet milk is so cheap?

@Joe Nathan yes

@Joe Nathan milk is just lazy cheese

Wait, cheese is expensive? Fuuuuu

yea

wait fuck im 13

@AmericanKid778 Parmesan cheese

Pour cheese on your cereal.
Mix cheese with your coffee and tea.

"Dewey, go easy on your orange juice. That stuff doesn't grow on.... wait IT DOES, SO WHY IS IT SO DAMN EXPENSIVE ?!"

@Commander Fox CC-1010 oh man that was such a good show

Good thing I don’t eat cheese 🧀

I seen the same thing but childhood is like cheese but adulthood is when cheese expensive

lol

to go on...

childhood is when you love batman. adulthood is when you want the joker to win.

A wise man

my knee jerk reaction would be Sheogorath.... but that would be breaking the 4th wall for a Daedric prince of madness with a cheese obsession to know about Batman....

Č Ĥ Ẹ Ẹ Ŝ Ẹ

r/Im14andthisisdeep

@DeadRaven underrated comment

@Herlock Sholmes No, it's an ignorant quote in my humble opinion.

@Fern Cohen If you want the Joker to win in adulthood something has gone wrong with your ability to show compassion and love for you fellow man. Remember what is what it was like when you were a boy playing with others you didn't yet know how to hate in preschool. Love is the answer. Return fear and hate with love and compassion. This is what is is to be strong and a real man in our world. NOT sociopathic/psychopathic behavior.

I’m 14 and this is deep

i remember a clip from a spanish youtube video that says "when you grow up you realize 2 things 1 everyone does drugs and 2 cheese is too expensive"

@Remix and Karaoke Dude kids are borderline sociopaths. Besides, if you are incapable of hate then you aren't capable of love, they're two sides of the same coin. Hate is good and neccessary.

"Childhood is when idolise batman, Adulthood is when you realise cheese is expensive" -a copypasta that has lost its means

I like cheese with tiny holes in it - mouse

cheese is not expensive

@DeadRaven no. cheese is just bad milk. cheese comes from milk, not the other way around

@Sam Carmen cheese requires extra process to make so milk is lazy because its not cheese or yogurt

@DeadRaven you have to get milk first in order to make cheese or yogurt and milk comes from cows. you have to first have a cow, then feed and care for it, then you have to milk it. milk is also processed bc you can't just milk a cow and drink it or you'll get diseases

No...

Something something SOCIETY

@TonyKhang lol you’re very old im 10

@AmericanKid778 depends where you live?

@Imtiaz Siraj The midwest. I also ate a block of cheese last week

Almost everyone has some reason to be sympathetic towards them and they still manage to write incredibly compelling stories

except castle in the sky
"haha yes I will use the power of laputa to conquer the world because... reasons!"

@Nathaniel Windsor Ill put my hand up and admit im no aficionado of the Ghibli films :') I'll take you word for it and do some... reasearch ? :'D

Its always seemed to me that ghibli movies are more about overcoming inner conflict and the hardships of life than fighting another person. To me they feel like pixar for adults.

@Winewood I agree from what I've seen the endings are often much less important to the story than the pivotal moments of character development along the way

Ghibli does have villains, but they are mostly not purely evil or the main focus of the story. A lot of the times there are multiple villains, groups or society/situation that serve as villains or antagonists and therefore makes them harder to point out as villains.
Like in spirited away Yubaba is the main villain but also most of the people populating the spirit world are villains as they are hating Chihiro and all human and bullying her, or in Prinzess Mononoke the people sent by the emperor or the people burning down the forests are the villains, in Porco Rosso the villain is the law as well as the american pilot, in Pom Poko it is humanity and their disregard for nature, in Ponyo it is Ponyos father, etc. Like in the video villains or antagonists can come in many forms.
Ghiblis villains/antagonists are mostly not a single person, nor the main focus of the story, but still and all of their actions are explained and you understand where they are coming from, why they are how they are and why they act like they do. Many times they also change their minds in the end of the movie like in Spirited Away where Yubaba and the Spirits start to like Chihiro or in Ponyo where the father starts to understand Ponyo and lets her go. Ghibli focusses more on the journey than the actual confrontation between protagonist and antagonist. But of course Ghibli also has bad and purely evil villains like in Castle of the Sky (people just want money and power bc they want it) or Howls moving castle (where another nation just attacks bc their prince is gone so they might as well start a war).

But ofc many ghibli movies also don't really have a protagonist - antagonist setting at all because they are meant to be more like slice of live-stories about one or a hand full of characters like Kiki's delivery service, whisper of the heart, my neighbor totoro, etc.

@Nathaniel Windsor To be fair, an ancient superweapon powerful enough to bring all nations of the the world to their knees is something any person who wants power would kill anyone for-and seeking dominion over others is a very human motive. Actually, Japan of all nations should know what it's like to be on the recieving end of such a weapon.

@Ross McDonagh Yeah it's only one of their most popular films lol

@Ross McDonagh Tales from Earthsea had very weak villians, but it's also one of their worst films and it's based on a YA series so of course it would.

@Orkhiss yeah, but my point is that the villain in the movie has no motivation beyond a lust for power. That's his entire personality. And every other myazaki-directed movie has a much more nuanced and sympethetic villain, if there even is a villain at all, which makes the antagonist of castle in the sky very uncharacteristic of the studio. I guess the sky pirates fill the movie's sympathetic antagonist quota instead, but it would've been interesting if the main villain was a more complex character with less one-dimensional goals.

@Nathaniel Windsor I would disagree with the concept that as simple lust for power is on it's fave unsympathetic. So many people go their entire lives trying to have power only over their own lives. I would agree as far as the films directed by Miyazaki and that are original IPs go, he is the least developed, and I'm sure they intended him to be unsympathetic. I also agree with the typical Ghibli moral of "natural=good, unnatural=bad".

@Winewood Ghibiliy movies are MOST (but not all) about man vs nature. It comes up a toooooon.

There was a villain in tales from earthsea : )

@ceejay Cobb is a bad villian.

@Silya X Yep, not a single one you describe is a villain, they are antagonists tho. They oppose the protagonist but no one is villanous or evil, nor chaotic. That's the point with Ghibli, they don't write evil villanous characters, they write compelling antagonists with valid points of view and justifiable actions

@Orkhiss lol yeah, he was weird n gross, but still 😂😂

There are great works of fiction without villains, even without antagonists. This is why I disagree with the conclusion of the video.

@Under Scrutiny Would you care to give examples? I would state tho that an antagonist doesn't necessarily mean an opposing person, it could be an opposing force or entity. In the case of the Joker movie for example the real antagonist is society.

@Silver Wolf that’s a very good point and in most cases its true! However, in the genre of literary fiction there usually isn’t any type of conflict (eg. Hemingway’s Cat in the rain). You can check out this post which summarizes very well this debate:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CJbbaX9lYz-/?igshid=1ajtapco5q67w

@Under Scrutiny Oh, I think you are right now that I think about it. There are some character studies where there's no conflict between forces and thus can't be an antagonist. Now that comes to mind Boyhood is a good example, Wolf's children too and Marriage story maybe. Or where protagonists conflict with one another, which doesn't mean they are antagonists, its just relationships.

@Nathaniel Windsor I don't think it mattered though since they werent the main fpcus of the movie. I hardly remember the villain but I still remember the witch and ended up feeling sorry for her in the end

Miyazaki's movies are about loving life... they're so beautiful.
In Howl's Moving Castle, the villain is war (and Howl himself as he is fighting both sides of that war, thus becoming the worst part of it.) we can also say that the witch is a villain but she ends up losing her powers and going back to her true self (powers made her evil). Sulliman is also "bad", but because she's selfish ; and she realizes by the end how dumb that war is. If i'm not wrong, Miyazaki said that wars are only made because of people's selfish desires (for power).
Miyazaki's stories are made for kids to have hope. They are stories about children facing hardships and trying to overcome it with love and life

Ghibli films are classic and can sum up human conflict at any point in history. Truly incredible, underappreciated, modern works of art. Princess Mononoke is my favorite animated film of all time. I could watch it forever. Makes me wish life was like a Ghibli movie

yeah they are once again made for kids so i don’t think they would want to make children traumatised for life...

@Orkhiss It reminds me of Code Geass and a lot of the complex relationships that happened in that show.

I only enjoyed one of their films.

It's probably because the western world doesn't have the sufficient mythological context to understand who the villain is

Spirited away had Yubaba

And howl’s moving castle had Madam Suliman.

Ponyo had a "villain". Man, now I want to watch Ponyo

This!

He was talking about the older episodes.

He acts that way no matter his environment is and you weren't supposed to want to be like him. You were supposed to see Squidward as what happens when you dwell in pessimism and nihilism

@Lucifer Joestar Yeah,but its like Benson with Mordecai and Rigby,we relate and root for them,but if you see it right,benson clearly has reasons to be angry at them because of mord and rigboy actions,just like spongebob and Patrick that are annoying af.

He did some things to deserve karma......and then there was plenty of cases where he wasn’t even in the wrong

Society

Me, ages 6 through 9: "Awh it's Squidward again. What's he going to do to ruin the fun this time? Spongebob and Patrick are just trying to have fun..."
Me, ages 10 through 14: fuming at how annoying Spongebob and Patrick are being to Squidward as he's just trying to read a book "IDIOTS!"

True, as I got older, (i still watch spongebob today lol) I realized spongebob was hella annoying, some things kind of put me in squids shoes by being woken up for school

@Xanthos Your views on Spongebob changed? How deep.

@get a life lol, but it IS pretty deep if spongebob represents urban childhood

@Darth Darkborg ...but it doesn't..

I think SpongeBob and Squidward are too extreme opposites. Spongebob is extremely naive and happy-go-lucky. He ignores problems and always screws up. He fails to become mature and take responsibility. Squidward is very pessimistic and resentful. He can't enjoy anything, and he can't find the motivation to better himself. I think the correct attitude is somewhere in the middle. Be optimistic, but not naive. Be responsible, but appreciate happiness whenever it manifests itself in your life.

dunno about you but even when I was younger I always felt bad for the guy.

That sponge is probably bringing down property values!!

No, I liked squidward xd

I felt a sense of relief when i saw that someone felt the same way

he said that already, go watch the video- it's good

Who is "we"? When I was younger I used to lament everytime Spongebob and Patrick went out of their way to annoy squidward 😭I mean Squidward never let them down gently but only because they really didn't understand 'no' for an answer.

@get a life Lol, you do you

@Lucifer Joestar How you're supposed to see a character is completely meaningless; we aren't all the same person; not imposing your desires on another is what makes you moral, and Squidward just wants to be left alone. He never goes to Spongebob's house simply to insult him, and only acts negatively when his own boundaries aren't respected.
You can call it nihilism, but he's quite content to enjoy life the way he wishes. I don't blame him one bit for not wanting to be walked on.

@Lucifer Joestar Yep the typical Black and white view of "Oh noooo pessimism is only baaaad and optimism is sooo much better and never wrong!"

I always hated that absolutly dumb logic. Both too much Pessimism AND optimism is unhealty.

@Acacius that wasn't my argument but pessimism is inherently bad because there's literally no point in always being negative it makes everything worse for no benefit. Lol get over yourself dude

@Lucifer Joestar Lol i could say the same to you too.

But sadly toxic positivtiy is nowadays a pretty big problem in society.

I know that sounds unbelievable: But people cant be all the time happy and positive. It is completly normal there a things and days where you are negative and unhappy.

@Acacius no not really, negativity is obviously the problem all you hear is people talk about how they're going to die from literally everything and can't handle accepting what they can't change

not me i always favored the villains or at least, the darker characters seen as psycho evil (but not?) dangerous insane damaged goods loser etc etc.

You are forgetting all the edgy kids who say they like villains to seem quirky :'D

@Ross McDonagh
Except Zuko is not edgy. He is serrated.

*root

*heroes, not hero’s. Hero’s is possessive, heroes is the proper spelling in this context.

The comment is now perfect

@Kettei 👌

I rooted for the Villains as a kid and sympathise with the heroes as an adult

Except Zuko was not a villain at all. He was just someone struggling with physical and emotional abuse. He is strong for overcoming it all. 😌

I always rooted for the one who shines the brightest in the show but now that i got older (12) i think i was very stoupid doing that

@AlphaTengua VENTz I think this probably depends when we are forced to grow up and how. Some of us had to grow up earlier than others.

I actually did when I started watching the Series with 10-11 years o:

Typically the only reason I'd prefer villains as a kid is if they looked cool like general grievous, he was a favorite of mine, or the xenomorph from alien

There is no mercy

Vader clearly overshadows him in public perception though

@W Spann Yes, but you feel tons of sympathy for Vader. Palps? He's JUST evil. No sad story, no relatable background, no nuance, just unapologetically evil,

@Quantum Videos Cz in legends he killed his family

@PewDie-Ton Legends. That very few have read and are now not canon. For all general audiences, Palps is just evil, while Vader was only like that in A New Hope, in Empire, you learn who he is and in Return, he turns good again, more or less. And the Prequels are all about him and his suffering as Anakin.

Only if you have a charimsatic villain with a fun personality, like you just gave an example of.

TEND to be, not always. There are tons of villains who are just bad. Taking the example of A:tLA, Ozai was just pure bad;no layers no reason, he was just bad.

Palpatine is on my top 10 most memorable villans, playing the part of populous pleaser all as an act to destroy the Jedi and their version of peace

Palpatine is memorable due to his interactions and motivations. He would fit right in with Fletcher from Whiplash. It's all about how a confused soul like Anakin can be influenced and turned evil.

I would argue that it's not evil villains that tend to be forgettable per se, but evil villains who are simple with no other qualities to them. Hell, much of Disney's classic villains are as simple as can be, but are recognizable through aesthetic and personality alone (even if the films they're in didn't do so well.) I would say Palpatine is memorable for the same reason.

Its based on how the villain is portrayed tbh you can have have evil villains who are just evil who are liked and remembered like frieza, scar, jafar, ursela, cartoon joker, dr eggman etc

Yeah that was a firm disagree from me. Complex villains create a more interesting and thought provoking movie but villains that are a pure representation of evil make for a really fun movie. Think Michael from Halloween.

@行屍走肉 I agree that complex villains are interesting. I was more so arguing that simple doesn't mean forgettable. As for Michael from Halloween, I think that would depend on which film in the series. Some films make him a silent, unfeeling murderer with no apparent motivation while others add things that seem out of left field. I guess it comes down to writing and reception. Some people are satisfied with revelations and complex backstories, while others are content with simplicity and mystique.

Dio: Ho?

@Quantum Videos Cz And even in Legends Palpatine was still irredeemably evil. While the Plagueis novel humanizes him, it also shows us that he was a monster from birth.

@Bova-Fett no bruh. Palpatine is only memorable because of prequel memes.

In the Original Trilogy alone, I’d say he’s quite forgettable especially when having to share with Vader. The prequels manage to make him memorable by the sheer scale and genius he displays, tied down to his relationship with Vader and betrayal

@Jakob Renner Exactly. I don't understand how willingly killing your parents makes for a sad backstory.

Canon or not, that's evil.

@Quantum Videos Cz Palpatine isn't "just evil" lol, some would even go as far as to say he did nothing wrong.

@Quantum Videos Cz palatine is a 2D character, no value what so ever, he's just there so the hero can be, a hero

Voldemord and shouron YESSSSSSSSSS

Lol no...there can be pure evil selfish villain in serious stories but end up being so memorable and likable. Specially nowadays that writers throw tons and tons of sad back stories to create villains that end up being much more horrible and unrealistic.

Also Micah Bell from Red Dead Redemption 2

"Evil villains tend to be forgettable." is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard

Palpatine works as a purely evil villain because of how cunning and calculated he is. He outsmarts and out maneuvers all the other characters, and you just can’t help but respect him for it.

@Quantum Videos Cz he is the master of anakin and anakin is the one who was obsessed, palpatine was necessary for anakin to become what we know as vader, thats why he is memorable

Most people only see him as a meme rather than a person

@Topaz Technically Dio's sympathetic because he grew up with an abusive father

@Patrick Fair enough. Azula, for example, is much more memorable and compelling a villain than her father because despite also being "pure evil," her personality is still much more unique than his.

@Quantum Videos Cz Palps is evil and loving it, like Skeletor he's somebody you'd never want to actually meet but cannot help adoring. He has so much damn fun being evil.

But hey that’s just a theory a game theory.

Well I'm disappointed he didn't mention Ice king from Adventure time in this video

@Sub if you hate Tik Tok and Twitter It’s funny how we as a kids just think he is just a stupid villain who is there just for laughs and giggles... until we find out about his past. It’s pretty smart of the creator, kids are watching and we grow up along side the characters while learning one by one on why they act this way.

@Giorno Giovanna forgot the very necessary comma there, sir.

@Sub if you hate Tik Tok and Twitter don’t forget mega mind, it’s a kids movie but it shows how there needs to be balance with a villain and hero.

he was probably the biggest reason on why pokimane had to come out with an apology, and his ban shows how out of place youtube's policies are

@cunny yeah not to mention this was preceded by the ban of LtCorbis aka Soph and Mumkey Jones. apparently good comedy is not allowed on youtube. but when will Shane Dawson get banned? ... who knows...

@cunny yeah but he didn't need to so like 10 videos on pokimane, he was acting like she had killed someone lol (no, im not a pokimane fan, before you call me a simp or something)

@Luis Valdes most of those were clickbait because he didnt spend time on poki, even then, YouTube's harassment policy is subjective and should be processed. An outright ban when theres a 3 strike system is excessive since poki was in no danger.

@Luis Valdes It was literally clickbait. He never even mentioned poki in those videos

That and “Hi, Zuko here,”

Having been a patient before, I am now incredibly concerned there's a bomb in me somewhere.

@ThePepperRonin Underrated Comment

Quotes are magical

Is this quote from a show or something or not

You're a time bomb Walt, going "tick tick tick"

and I sure as hell don't want to be around for the boom.

No, your patience is the fuse

This is where the argument for morality being objective vs subjective come in

I always remember Maleficent. I just seen both movies last year

Having justifiable reasons to be evil doesn't make you less evil.

Fin good thing he wasnt truly evil

@HowToAvenge101 Zuko was evil and turned to good. That's literally his story arc.

Zuko was a bad guy to train character but he was never evil, he was always soft and nice and wanted to try to be like his sister bit never had it in him.

@Isaiah You need to rewatch the series. Zuko was trying to kill or capture the only person who could save the world and had a temper that caused much harm. He betrayed his only mentor and mocked him every chance he got.

On top of this, Zuko literally talks about how hard it is to be good when he's trying to join team avatar. This means he considers his own previous actions to be evil.

@Fin he was never evil. we know the fire nation children were taught in schools (propaganda), the fire nation saw themselves as helping the other nations by conquering them. After zuko experiences other ways of life he realizes that what is happening is wrong, and his father is wrong. He was always a good person, and the reason he was banished and his father hated him was because he was good. Zuko just grew to believe that that was something he had to hide

@Moondreamer Zuko doesn't realize he's wrong until after his honor is restored and he spends time reflecting on his decisions. He spends many seasons perfectly willing to harm anyone who gets in his way. Just because his mind was full of propaganda doesn't make him not evil. You're evil because of your actions, not who taught you.

@Fin he wasn't evil though, he was just a 16 year old who was shunned by his family and trying to make his way back. there are moments where his morality shows through, like in Zuko Alone or The Storm. anyway something we can both agree on is by the end of ATLA he's a good person

@Moondreamer Motivations don't matter, actions do. It doesn't matter why he was committing evil, only that his actions were evil. Hitler wouldn't be forgiven for his evil acts just because he had good reasons.

@Fin That Is Literary The Story Ark Of Darth Vader

@Shawn the Question And?

@Fin Its A Very Common story ark

@Shawn the Question I don't understand why you commented. Everyone is very aware of the arc and how common it is.

@Fin You are absolutely right, and i hate to admit that people with your honest mindset are quite rare...
It is simply fact that evil acts to not require evil intentions.

You mentioned hitler so i might as well build on that a little;
Some people actually believe that (generally speaking) mentally ill people can never be evil, and never deserve punishment, because they aren't fully aware of their actions... By that logic... Hitler would basically be innocent if it turned out that he was mentally ill...
It honestly disgusts me... Hell, i'd even argue that mentally ill people are even more evil than "normal" people, as they show their true selves. (talking specifically about the violent ones, of course)

In a similar way, being raised to think horrible actions are fine does not make you any less guilty if you commit to those actions... It just makes you more ignorant, and as such more evil...
I'd also argue that we all have a "mentally ill" side to us (not usually noticeable in everyday life, of course), even multiple ones, and we can never really know where that "mentally ill" line is.

...anyway...

@SCHNEK Evil acts aren't forgiven simply because the offender had good intentions or was incompetent. Even the mentally ill stand trial and are placed in an institution if found guilty or a threat.

@SCHNEK I'm not sure where you were going with your comment, honestly.

@Noir Every teenaged main character in the show except Azula went through that very process. The uniqueness of Zuko's arc was that he transitioned from evil to good.

@Noir You're simply expanding on what I had said, regardless of what you think you're doing. He was set up to act evil and transition to good. He just had a higher hill to climb.

He was antagonist. John wick would be a villain then

@Fin I mean... Well he feel guilt from betraying he uncle and plus he have a soft heart, he was told that his uncle betrayed them all that shit, and in the end his sister try to kill him, and found out she lied to him, his father doesn't care less if he is dead.
For example Psychopath, they feel anything no sympathy or empathy.

@Blassom Empress You can be evil and not a psychopath.

@Fin He didn't want to kill Aang. He wanted to capture him. He was doing it because he felt betrayed by his father. Just because you admit it is hard to be good doesn't mean your actions were evil.

@Fin Difference between being evil and broken. It's like Michael Myers, IT is evil. They literally call Myers an "IT" because he doesn't feel sympathy. They see him as the living embodiment of evil. NOW lets talk about Jason Voorhees, yes he kills. But the motivation is what matters here, he kills for revenge and for his mom. He doesn't kill the innocent. Only witnesses and threats. That's it. THAT is a broken character, NOT an evil character.

@Fin Azula was i'd say close to being pushed over to the light. But she fell.

@Fin When you say something or someone is evil, you are saying they aren't human. You are saying their is no coming back. His actions WERE justifiable. He was practically forced to do what he did. FOR YEARS. A TEEN. KICKED FROM THE FAMILY UNTIL HE BROUGHT HOME THE AVATAR. That's not evil, that's broken.

Didn't zuko literally refuse to be evil and that's why he was banished?

@josh yupp

@josh He had good morality. Even if it never showed 100 percent of the time.

@JuicyMuscprod I'd say the only truly evil character in the show I zuko's father (can't remember his name lol)

@josh He was a tyrant. He did what he pleased. He really was actually a bad guy. No turning back for him, reason why aang took his bending. Also btw his name was Ozai.

@JuicyMuscprod yes I agree and thanks for reminding me lmao

@josh yeah no prob

@josh also, Boba fett is the GOAT

@Fin Comparing Zuko to Hitler is ridiculous. Zuko never committed genocide, he was a 16 year old that was abused and cast out by his father. He hunts Aang to restore his honor which he comes to realise that, despite everything he's ever been taught his whole life, the fire nation are wrong, he sides with Aang and teaches him firebending as well as helping them to stop the War.

@josh yes, he was literally banished for saying that sacrificing innocent lives was the wrong move for the fire nation

@JuicyMuscprod ty my man

​@name cannot be blank The comparison was an exaggeration to prove the point that actions define people more than their intentions. Zuko served evil when he was hunting the avatar. End of story.

@Darkhunter mini John Wick is an anti-hero. He did evil in revenge for evil acts against him.

@JuicyMuscprod Zuko knew Aang would be captured and tortured if captured. Additionally, letting the Fire Nation complete its goal of world domination is inherently evil. Zuko was serving a fascist regime and thus was evil. End of story.

@JuicyMuscprod You also have no clue what you're talking about when you define evil. Being evil doesn't make anyone subhuman. You need to take ethics and philosophy classes.

@josh No, he was banished for refusing to fight his fascist father in a duel to regain the honor of a general. Zuko continued to serve his fascist father and was thus evil.

@Fin Nope. You forget one thing. The reason why he was banned, he didn't agree with the invasion and spoke up against it.

I honestly never saw Zuko as a villain, just another hero that started on the opposite side of the spectrum

@JuicyMuscprod That was the cause of the duel, but not the reason he was banished. You need to rewatch the series and pay attention.

@Peter-Peter Pumpkin Eater The opposite of a hero on the spectrum is a villain....

@Fin Yes I know that. I mean in of Zuko not as the character but as a concept in literature.

Like you now how a character is both a fleshed out person we understand but they simultaneously embody a concept. Both Aang and Zuko embodied the same thing, like heroism and duty and etc..., but they started on the opposite ends of what that concept actually was.

So Zuko the character is a villain like Aang the character is a hero but Zuko the concept is the same thing as Aang the concept.

(Am I making sense?)

@Peter-Peter Pumpkin Eater You are! I apologise for being rough on you when you clearly do know what you're talking about.

@Fin It is definitively not "end of story" as it was literally only the beginning of his story. My overall point is still valid.

@name cannot be blank Your points were countered and you're wrong on every level. Rewatch the show and take some philosophy or film classes.

@Fin How am I wrong exactly? You're just saying that I am without providing any justification.

Yeah. My interpretation of his character in the earlier seasons is a heavily troubled boy who’s keeping a tough exterior which he uses to show his large amounts of frustration and anger. Though under a lot of layers, he’s still the sweet boy he was in his childhood, which possibly even subconsciously influence his actions. He never burnt or seriously hurt anyone in the show, unlike Azula or Zhao, no matter what happened, even when he was attempting to mold himself as how they would behave. I can’t think of a single time he actually burnt anyone.

I also remember the episode with the pirates specifically, and that really dumb line about how he’d save Katara from those pirates. I doubt he was completely kidding, as if the pirates did get there hands on her they’d probably rape/torture her, and even angsty Zuko didn’t want that. Though I doubt it was a completely conscious action, which he justified with excuses.

The guy sure makes a lot of excuses in his denial spiral.

His story in my opinion is all about him shedding the layers of his anger and slowly realizing that he was being a massive bitch to please his murderous father for two and a half seasons. Realizing he didn’t have to keep up such a facade up, as he wasn’t longing for a purposely impossible goal anymore.

That’s my take on it anyhow, though I’d enjoy hearing others

He was basically a police officer, from his point of view. Or a detective, maybe. The Avatar was a criminal in his country. And his entire society would have revered him as a hero if he had succeeded in capturing him. So he is absolutely a hero from his own perspective. And that's what really makes Zuko's character remarkable, and Avatar as a show: the politics. It's pretty much an unremarkable adventure serial until the context and urgency are created by the actions of governments, especially the fire nation. Everything the gang has to do, and the timeline they need to do it in, is created by the Fire nation. And the fire nation's morals and culture are what transforms Zuko from a one-dimensional villain into a hero from his own land viewed as a villain only by Aang and the audience. And the fire nation aren't the only political actors, obviously. We later get all these different factions with their own morals and views: The White Lotus, the water tribes, the previous avatars, the earth nation, etc. And for each one of them, you have a different set of views on the Avatar's journey and the political status quo, and you even have different end results for how well off they'll be depending on who wins the struggle between Aang and the fire lord. And that's what make the stakes on the final fight, and the final season so crazy. Not only do we want to see Aang win, but we've gotten to know the perspective of all the people who will suffer or benefit from one side or the other succeeding. It's like the classic "save the world" stakes, except it removes the usual issue with that, which is the world isn't well characterized so we don't really care. And lastly, Zuko being revered for potentially capturing the avatar, and Aang being a villian to the fire nation, is a parallel of the real life feud between China and Tibet. To this day, China is trying to imprison the Dalai Lama or redefine the title of his inherited successor if he dies. So even years after the show goes off the air, you're left to reinterpret what it had to say based on future politics. It's actually nuts how good this is when you consider it's a Nickelodeon cartoon from 15 years ago.

Arthur fleck isnt a villain either. Hes a broken man and his version of the joker is an anti hero.

@An aching Ski Walker I find your attempt at an insult absolutely hilarious! Good try!

Well said my friend. Well said

Zuko is good fire nation is bad
But when zuko become a king fire nation is good .. so who make fire nation bad ? Zuko father ... So what make zuko father bad ? Idk ..... THISSS IS WHAT FUCKING VIDEO TELL U ABOUT

So the idea of y all debating over zuko .. is just fucking pointless my dude, what do you try to achieve over that ? .

@Finzz What do you care if it's so pointless?

Just gonna leave this here for everyone

Define: evil
> profoundly immoral and wicked

Define: bad
> failing to conform to standards of moral virtue or acceptable conduct

So, by definition, Zuko was not evil. He was bad. The label of evil would fit more to Ozai

@Satirics You have an elementary understanding of vocabulary and provided no examples to support your position.

@Fin Zuko's story arc was not a Villain redemption, but of an Abuse victim who underwent recovery. He was a child who was abused and gaslit by his father into believing that he needed to silence his own moral compass (the person he rly was when he stood up for his own beliefs and spoke against the immoral plan of the general) and "redeem himself as prince" by capturing the avatar, when in reality he was just trying to get his father to love him and stop abusing him up until he realized he was never the problem and recovered from his abuser's manipulation.

The harmful actions Zuko had done during his banishment and Zuko's amends to those actions later on, was not him transitioning from evil to good, but of him returning to the good person he was from the beginning as he was not clear of mind back then due to his tunnel-vision and obsessed drive to please his abusive father.

@EpicFights789 Victims can be villains too. Suffering abuse in your past doesn't make you blameless for committing your own abuse unto others.

sometimes making a good/iconic villain happens to also relate to sympathizing for them, they can overlap at times.

Dark spyro:agree to disagree.

"Once you realize your mistakes, it turns to acceptance and correctness"

@Henry Crabs the law of the internet, if a philosophy is even mildly dark, it is edgy and dumb

Nope. Wrong.

The fact he is littarely heartless

true

Yes, people use overcompensation all the time a.k.a. "once burned twice shy". As usual, once a stupid person finally understands that they made a mistake, they do a 180 and make the opposite mistake, instead of actually understanding the cause and the mechanism of their mistake. The only "evil" in this world is human stupidity and its' consequences. And even then, just learn to protect yourself from it, and remove it from within yourself by constant learning, simple...

Love that

@Nick E do I smell a skylanders reference?

@Eric TheBro you sure do. I love Skylanders!

@Nick E We skylanders fans survive in the shadows, elusive yet ever-present

@Eric TheBro dang straight dude.

62 cents
~The flying dutchman

“Cheer up, sleepy Jean!” - another Davy Jones

Batman would have to beat up innocent bystanders or something. Wouldn't be a demand for a super anything lol, and thus people would take advantage of that (thus the cycle is constantly fluctuating, happens all the time in predator and prey species, happened a bunch with numbers of pirates and merchant ships, and must be similar phenomena/ cycles in business world)

Villains are only necessary because there are other villains

@Dman9fp Oldschool batman directly killed the really bad guys, he didn't deliver them to the police, and there's also this guy, don't remember what he did or what he's called, but he's got him locked up for life, in a dark cell in a sewer somewhere

batman isn't (wasn't?) always purely good, the end used to justify the means

Couldn't agree with you more.

Lol yeah, caught me of-guard

We need awful people to know what we can't become.

The anti-heroic Leafy vs the Maleficent Pokimaine.

What makes this even better is that Palpatine didn't make Anakin turn into Darth Vader. He simply showed Anakin the door, and Anakin willingly walked through

Interestingly enough, because Ankain didn't kill Padme, and by the time he killed Obi- wan they weren't close, and because u have to kill someone close to u to become a sith, Anakin was never a true sith lord

@Darth Darkborg Very true indeed

Lol I'm such a ner

Nerd

@Darth Darkborg Nah, it's all good

Lol

@Darth Darkborg So let's ignore that he killed defenseless children ???

@Conde Dooku from the point of view of the code of Darth Banes sith order, those younglings weren't close enough to Anakin to count

@Conde Dooku also that's such a funny scene to watch LMAO

@Darth Darkborg The intentions count, and Anakin had the intention of killing Obi wan and many years later Ashoka, that he did not succeed does not mean that he wanted to do it, he also participated in the genocide of the Jedi before and after Order 66, he killed the Separatist leaders while begging miserably for their lives, executed Dooku in cold blood, slaughtered an entire Tuskens village, participated in multiple genocides, assassinations and massacres perpetrated by the Empire, watched as Tarkin destroyed an entire planet without doing anything to prevent it, cut the hand of his own son and helped the Empire to end the Rebellion.

@Darth Darkborg I agree on that (only for the memes).

@Conde Dooku no one he actually killed was close enough to Anakin to count however, until he kills Palpatine. In that one second he both redeem himself and fully becomes a sith............ironic

@Conde Dooku if we can agree on that, we can agree on other things

well said brother

@Conde Dooku God I loved that scene

@Nugget LOL!

@Bay Area Sports Fan not really, he very clearly told anakin that being a sith was good, and told him to take steps towards becoming a sith, like killing count dooku. He also told anakin to betray Mace Windu.

@Darth Darkborg so dooku is also not a true sith?

@Laimonas he killed Sifo Dias

@Darth Darkborg they were not that close

@Laimonas they where like brothers

@Laimonas I've just done a fact check and they where, where r u getting ur information from so that I can check it out?

Until he became hollow enough to strike down Ben Kenobi

I have sympathy for Anakin

@Darth Darkborg according to your logic every single human being which exists is a sith lord because they've killed an ant

@IHateMotionBlur _ wait what? My logic on my original comment or Anakin not being a sith Lord?

@Darth Darkborg I dunno I was high when I sent that

@IHateMotionBlur _ LOL

I read that as "god"

@Darth Darkborg Love the way you describe Granddad Palps. But you forget one thing.









He's the Senate man.

@I AM The Senate how could I forget!

@Robert Ortiz-Wilson no, she died of a broken heart, he did not actually kill her. He believed he did, allowing him into the order, but he did not kill her.

insert Seinfeld reference

he said it

RISE

BOTTOM TEXT

WOKE AF

what is society?

@Scorpionstrike7 Beat me to it

We live in a society

this really says a lot about our society

@RedLetto Great minds think alike!

Many Vs Society
Society will change

He said who remembers Maleficent despite he being one of the most recognisable villains of all time

@jaijo Erik people remember the character itself, i think he meant more the movie. I personally could not give you a synopsis of the movie (and i watched it as a kid)

He said he was a try hard in school, so probably pretty good.

truee

Probably more authentic than good

The thing that gets me is the big words. That’s why I love his content so much

Nice.

Than

fun isn't something one considers when approving messages, but this... does put a smile on my face

Drip thanos?

We found Thanos bois

Yes because The Avengers are awful characters, specially Iron Man.

@Monica Aboites What are your issues with their characters in the films (I'm guessing you're talking about the MCU)? Because they seem to connect very successfully with a wide majority of audiences

You are not Thanos

@Kimg Komg Ok King Kong

Anyone who believes that "Thanos Did Nothing Wrong" crap has obviously never heard you rap...

As Benito Mussolini i approve this approval

@mitens  no

@Hoping Star E yes they do

@Cindy Aurum looool im not gonna take you seriusly with that pfp

@mitens  slaps

@mitens  Whatever makes you sleep at night.

@mitens  I dunno, I mean Joker is a mysterious supervillain. He's a type that I want to learn about, pretty sure something had made him become "Joker". Batman tries to bring him to the good side but he replies that eventually he will go back to the dark side.

satans logic. sounds like a song by the rolling stones...

@mitens  brainworms

How about Obito

History is told by the victors and survivors... One man's savior might be another man's antagonist

@james aaron Pains motivation and story is great too... His goal was to defend his people and protect them from the havok of war. He also desired a world without wars...

@OutTanked Thanks but Obito I said

Obito isn't a hero though, his point of view is.. saw his crush die to his rival and premeditated many deaths.. and willingly followed a family member to destroy many nations included his own which he wished to lead one day spawned from anger and revenge...he's not an anti hero and only redemption he has is after he gets betrayed... Sure he helped Naruto survive.. he also manipulated pain to murder thousands .. and that's only one instance.. he is a sad kid who got friend zoned and wanted to shoot the school up in retaliation

@mitens  "always" no, only the shit villains kill just to kill

Except in next part of the video there is villain that can't be understood

@Real_Slim_Shady Doofenshmirtz Evil incorperated.

Big rock better small rock nopper

Those are the stupidest things I have ever heard.

True words, true words.

as kids we idolize perry
as adults we understand doofenshmirtz

Funny thing is I'm a kid and I understand villains more than my parents. Or maybe I'm just symphizising with them too much...

I’ve actually always loved the villains better. They’re just so interesting

@Lego Red Dead the best characters in bad kids movies are always the villains. i.e. gargamel in smurfs

@The Belen i think its more of the parents not wanting you to think their good so they try to set that example

r/im14andthisisdeep

@Spooderman Could be

Nah I hate both.

As a kid a lot of the villains in movies I felt bad for. I kept looking to find kids movies I was allowed to watch that made the "bad side" win. Movies as a kid were never fun to watch because one always had to suffer or pay for their actions. I just wanted them to either get away or to develop as a good character and live like that. But i dont know why i liked the villains, I guess I was just different.

And as old men we shit ourselves

deep🥺💘😰😨

@Spooderman Worship doofenshmirtz*

@WrenRen SSB r/ihavereddit

@Jaz Turner i think even for a teenager have 3 characters i felt sympathy for the villian

Yeah

No I admire villains since birth

As a child I always understood and empathised with villains. Now that I’m an adult I still do, I guess I can only relate to the villains.

@Lego Red Dead exactly

Wise words. ill make sure to tell the kids im not having that.

@The Belen There’s this tendency among almost everybody to overestimate their own competence and experience when they’re young. And that’s not a bad thing — it’s an important part of learning about yourself and your place in the world as you grow up. But don’t underestimate what your own parents know and understand.

Maybe you’re really into literature or psychology, and maybe you do understand what a villain is and how it works better than your parents. The world has a ton of people who struggle to cope with the ugly randomness of the world, and turn to simple answers to make sense of the world around them.

But consider that your parents were once your age, and probably had many similar ideas. Maybe they’re just trying to set a better example for you to follow.

@Spooderman you still idolize perry tho.Just with understanding doofenshmirts

@A cat that looks like hitler True, but the one's that aren't pure evil are more interesting and compelling. I enjoy complexity more than a black and white perpective.

@Luke Fabis Fair points

Everybody needs an uncle Iroh in their life. Hell, I need one.

I have a friend who is basically the Uncle Iroh of my life and I have such a powerful urge to make her proud that it's not even funny.

Your 100% right

azula has uncle iroh though

@sainbaatar well. Yes but no. Iroh agreed with Zuko about azula being crazy. So they teamed up to try to take her down

@That Original Kid thats exactly my point. even if you have a good guy in your life if you fucked up like azula you just have no hope. sorry for the bad english

@sainbaatar it’s okay dude. I can’t speak for shit as well lol

"you know I was going to make all living beings immortal so I can torture them for my entertainment but uncle iroh you convinced me that's not nice"

@Martin freemon Hes called Jesus in mine

👏

@RoiRoiJe make her your wife.

Little soldier boy....Comes marching home, Brave soldier boy....Comes marching home

always happy to help.

@RoiRoiJe so you have a crush on said person

Oh no poor guy

Got me cracking up💀

@George Zhang I-🤣

Aang had his entire tribe killed

What cabbages? Those ones that are burning in an inferno?

@Martin freemon MY CABBAGES

LMAO YESSSS

He isn’t but he’s up there

@Kay Dollar then who is?

@That Original Kid Of course the cabbage man is the ultimate victim, and Zuko went through so much too, but Aang’s race got erased. You could say “hey but Aang didn’t get AS affected by that”, but that would mean that the “pain rating” would discard the circumstances and only take in count the way the character goes through that situation. Basing ourselves in that, Katara suffered more than Aang, cause yes, she “only” lost her mother but for years and years she blamed herself for it, endured so much emotional pain and bottled up her feelings while Aang had HELP and was able to “move on” from it. But then again, what sounds worse? ALL your people/race getting murdered or your mother getting killed, you decide. Whatever, everyone went through a lot of stuff and comparing/invalidating trauma isn’t cool. Even Azula went through a lot, and I don’t mean towards the end, her whole life was a tragedy. I love this show so much, it has such complete characters that you can spend hours and hours analyzing! Except for the fire lord, he pretty much can be summed up in 3 sentences... but that makes him... himself!

@Kay Dollar Yeah, I can see now. I also love avatar to death. Aang went though some shit. Sokka wasnt that hurt by his monther dieing then katara. Thanks :D

Griffith should be in this video

LMAOOOO

The Cabbage Cart: Am I a joke to you?

MY CABBAGESSSS

That line hit me hard when I first watched

@Minecraft Veteran Yoda Yeah, it is a great line. It does so much for Zuko, Azula and Ozai. Like it sets up the kind of person Ozai is even more so and also lets us know Azula is powerful while also showing how tragic Zuko's life is.

Azula: “My own mother called me a monster! She was right of course, but it still hurt!”

@Flame I mean if we are doing Avatar quotes we will be here all day.

@TheZebbga Then I better go ask uncle iroh to make some jasmine tea

@Flame Haha, "This tea is nothing but hot leaf juice!'

@TheZebbga Leaves from the vine....

@Flame What a....."happy" scene....

@Flame as my

@TheZebbga'more like the coldest tea in Badingsae!

@Conan Okay, I dont remember that quote.

@TheZebbga Ngl it made me tearbend

I dont need luck though.

I was legit thinking about that since the start of the video

Maybe, but Azula has no pity. It's something that she doesn't have. She just cares about lore and that's it.

I'm a fan of the arthas story >.> hopefully shadowlands doesn't wreck it

Truer words have NEVER been spoken

saying that implies he's a villain at all

@Chips The Kiwi I didn't know that claim could get any better, but you have made it even better, WAH Is love WAH is life

@Chips The Kiwi Well, as Emp talks about with Prince Zuko, we are viewing almost everything in the Mario franchise from Mario's point of view but if we were to view it from Waluigi's perspective, Mario is the real villain.

God can't be a villain

@King Dedede I'm not caught up on his lore soo how exactly is he a villain to wah?

@Antonio Dunbar Waluigi really isn't a villain, I'd say he's a combination of Prince Zuko and Syndrome, just trying to seek acceptance and appreciation but ultimately gets rejected by the world. "Wah" is also just a sound Waluigi makes and is popular for.

WAAAAAAAAAARG

Except Sakurai

WEEGEE NUMBAH ONE

WAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHW

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As a fat man who farts a lot I’ve always related best to Wario

@Piss in the sink Understandable. Have a great day

Wah

shit you right

Especially Kirk Hammett

Wah

WAH

Rude of you to pigeon hole him as the Villain

@Schoen Perkins In a later comment I said that since we viewing everything from Mario's perspective, he is thought of as the villain, but if we were to view everything in the Mario franchise from Waluigi's point of view, Mario is the true villain.

This should be written in the Bible.

What's so relatable about a scummy, cheating, loser? it's no wonder Sakurai bans him from being a playable character in Smash Brothers.

Waluigi isn't even a villain. He was only really shown as a rival, and never did anything that bad before.

@LemonadeSnake Tbh, Mario is the real villain if we view it from Waluigi's point of view.

@King Dedede technically, Mario could possibly be a villain anyway. He's killing hundreds of people just because they're accociated with Bowser when most of them don't even actively try to kill or hurt Mario. Even the ones that do were probably warned by others about Mario and are doing it out of self defence. Bowser could even be trying to make everything better, while Mario and Peach don't see the bigger picture, which has driven him to do anything to stop them.

get out of my head get out of my head get out of my head

Facts

@MajorFanBoy How dare you

@PlanaandB For what? Being intelligent.

Kirk Hammet would agree with you

Walagruigi

No 🧢

This is technically true and it annoys me


WAH!

@A cat ok thanks

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U

Waluigi isn't a villain, he just wanted to get into Smash

@SloppyJoe1100 what about from a fallen angels point of view

Wah

WAH!

WAHt you say boy?

WAH?!

Indeed

@Waluigi Ayeee the homie here

My king

@A cat WAH

Why is this comment buried?

@VM- Hoss I dunno.

ThE aLgOrItHm

You again, King Dedede! You better not steal my food, or else you're done for.

I can remember where this came from but we are all side characters in someone else's story

Idk I don’t think the guy who wants to burn down my house is me in this case

@Phoenix RQ that's a really close minded statement lol

I'm my own side charachter that is absolute garbage but still a fan favourite for some reason

I'm actually just the villan.

@Phoenix RQ what are you talking about? I think we're all the ones to burn down our own houses

@17RaysPlays all that edge and no point

@ODST Trooper Nonono. I'm not an edgy villain. I'm just the source of most of the main conflicts of my life's story.

@ODST Trooper he means he's destroying himself, not that he's as cool as the joker or Thanos.

@17RaysPlays dam, all that pain a 14 year old gotta go through 😔😔😔😔
why'd you take that kids juice box

@IChaseFish Geeze, can't a guy make a self depreciating joke without being accused of being an edgelord?
And don't act like I can't be having problems at 14( I'm 16, but close enough) because everyone has problems, and you shouldn't be accessing me of living some perfect conflictless life.
And for future reference, the juicebox statement only works if you equate me to an elementary schooler.

@17RaysPlays What you said was cringe, the way you type makes me feel like you get bullied at school, and the sans pfp is just icing on the cake. If you don't wanna get nagged on the internet, don't say stupid things lol

I'm an NPC lol

@2x 4 Oh hey look, it's the origin for my username.

Yeah.

I think your sentence would work better as "there is a protagonist, and an antagonist" since we're often our best obstacle and best helper at the same time.

Platitudinous 🤓

Gotta get those clicks per minute on their articles.

If whatever the hell the media is about is heroic, I want to be as villainous as possible. They are the greatest enemy to the people in our time, as a certain recent president once said. I don't even care if people like or hate him, I just saw him as a kind of breath of fresh air from the totalitarianism of the institutions that govern us (I know he was partially in the water with them, but at least he wasn't fully submerged. They've made that clear for 6 years now).

Basically, I wish the left and right would just go joker mode, hold hands for a second, and focus on the true enemy rather than tearing each other up at our own expense and to the delight of soulless oligarchs.

I wouldn't be surprised if that's what their mission. Tragedies have always been used as ratings boosters for the media in general. If they can use those incidents to bully people to spread their false realities while boosting their ratings, then no wonder the American media has devastating lack of trust from the public.

Like that one song so excellently says:

The news just LOVES dirty laundry

Just like they loved the riots last summer

Bro Hero Syndrome momet

Like when the news "warns" parents about some dangerous trend. You figure out that only 1 person done before the news warning. Ie the news caused the exact the they were trying to "save" us from.

We had some guests over a month ago or so. Media came up, because of an incident in the german soccer League. (Dont ask me about it, idk what happend.) Just so no one gets confused, my father is the representative of a minority in my country. He shouldnt say anything about the party in charge and stuff like that.
So he told us, that every time someone from a news portal came to him with questions about smth related to a political issue, he had to ignore them, because if you say even one word to them, they can just make up a lie and support it by saying, that they talked to him. And if he actually told them smth, he wouldnt be able to say, that they didnt talk to each other.

Its honestly bizarre and disgusting.

@Gergely Ritter journalist are the scum of the earth. I would trust anyone over them.

@MrSqurk Would you call this "Hero Syndrome"? 😉

@Sunny Sunshine He died tho. Woefully esoteric how lol

It's sad to see. They do the exact same thing with school shootings.

@MrSqurk I would trust them more than a us cop.

@alex m but why? Cops are subjected to the same twisting of realty that everything else is by the media. The same treatment of taking the exception and making it the rule. The media makes every cop to be as bad as the one who killed floyde but in reality you'd be hard pressed to find a single police station, that isnt for a incredibly small town in the south, where you wouldnt find a majority of people who would be generally considered good people. Speaking from personal experience i've met a scarce few cops who i thought were as bad as the media portrays them, and my opinions were not only acknowledged but also shared by their fellow officers at times. Cops dont like bad cops, thats a fantasy of the media. And believing that fantasy only adds to the problem and the conflict.

no it's to tone down and crowd control those non japanese people to watch it in japanese dub cause it's cooler and edge

True especially about that last part.

@Henry Lansing tell me you’re a white guy crypto bro without telling me you’re a white guy crypto bro

@Killer Mudkip I don't think that most police are 'bad people.' Like, they kick puppies and never tip and shit. However, I think that the system of american policing requires reform. Police are not trained to or expected to use passive methods to resolve problems. They are meant to give commands, and in bad situations, to exact justified violence. And sometimes that's good, but when it's not, things like 'the blue wall of silence' and 'qualified immunity' act to deflect from accountability. In this way, the system artificially protects and encourages bad people. So, I don't naturally assume that all cops are bad people. But I know that cops are are expected to act with force, and that force is expected to be acceptable.

Henri Lansing very edgy

@DontTazeMeBro 96 hands up dont shoot

i cant breathe

these were both fake news, and both deserved way worse

@Henry Lansing America wouldn't be America without the media. Does the media do and say some dumb things, yes, but thanks to media, the government has to be more mindful about the people. Without the media the government could do whatever and cover it up without any backlash.

@MoonBound 64 ...

You literally just said America = media and media = America. The two are virtually inseparable for the docile population.

All I'm saying is, if I were the government, I would also spend all my time convincing people that the media and government are opposed to each other and definitely not in union with each other.

@Henry Lansing you said the media was our enemy. It's not. There's a reason why we have the freedom of press. It's to help maintain balance of power in the government. Why would you want people to go against them? When i said thay America wouldn't be America without the media, what i meant was America wouldn't be a republic. Also you're in that the media and government aren't in union, as they shouldn't be sometimes.

Well the Joker literally said that Batman completes him

They complete each other <3

One For Chaos, One for order
Not necessarily good or evil

actually, batman's direct opposite is killer moth. many people forget that killer moth is actually the yin to batman's yang since he's a bit of a joke character from the silver age of comics while joker is from the gruesome golden age

Literally they are. Both of them are completely insane but they are yet completely different people and they turned out completely different

Not good nor evil, but order and chaos. Both forced to clash continual.

@Cumulus whispers It is good to evade your taxes

Both batman and joker are villains, society of Gotham, which creates such freaks and high crime rate, is a true victim.

It wasn’t one bad day that pushed joker over the edge it was his entire life breaking him down into what he becomes.

Joker tortured robin for over 2 years..

@Siashi and now that robin in theory is the new joker.

@Siashi it was for the content

joker didnt have just one bad day, he tried to be good every day until the world broke him. It can happen to you, to me, to anyone, even your heroes. Everyone has the devil in them.

Batman opened the present because he’s a good guy
Inside was a coupon for new parents.
But it was expired!
This is a Joker joke.

Well except neither yin nor yang are evil, or good for that matter. They're more like masculine and feminine, or electricity and magnetism

Joker doesn't acts for good or evil, he does what he does for chaos

@Nathan Kiefer I meant yin and yang like they’re both so different but if you look at it closely they have bits of each other

Well thats because Megamind didnt really have a reason to be evil other than his skewed sense of "destiny". If anything, Megamind's story is the reverse, a story about a character so set on one thing that when they get it they're left jaded. When Megamind seemingly defeated Metro Man and took over Metro City, he was left melancholy, and unable to go on, so he decided to create a new superhero to complete him, a plan that ultimately backfires(on that note it could also be said that Metro Man suffered the same thing, growing tired of the constant hero-work, and staged his death as a result. Megamind couldnt exist as a villain without a hero, and when he realized that, as well as compassion and morality that he realizes his true destiny.

tl;dr, its hard to feel sympathy for a villain whose reason can be summed up as "be careful who you call ugly in high-school".

EDIT: Remembering the things Megamind went through as a kid, I suppose thats a justifiable reason, but its not like he had any hatred as a result, he just wanted to fuck shit up.

Edit 2: Used a poor word to describe something, changed to be a bit better.

Or Hitler?

@Pankakotakis Megalomavropoulos ikr such a tragic villain. Feel bad for the guy

@Pankakotakis Megalomavropoulos yeah dude just wanted to go to art school

Well he didn't talk about Drago Bludvist from How To Train Your Dragon 2 and about the whole deal of him seeing his whole village die and burn, his family die and having his arm ripped off by dragons all when he was just a child either......
Nobody ever seems to give a shit about that part of Drago's character......
Even the movie itself doesn't care. Dragons burned his village and slaughtered his people showing some dragons are just hostile and cruel, movie never brings this up again and instead just gives us a speech about that good dragons under the control of bad people do bad things like it's saying all dragons are good and pure never meaning any harm only humans are capable of being assholes for the heck of it. Yeah BULLSHIT! Movie where's the message that people can go down bad paths because of fear, trauma and loss of loved ones? Does what happened to Drago's village not matter?
I don't understand what Dreamworks was going for with Drago. It looks like they were trying to make him intentionally unsympathetic but his backstory and the fact that the first movie with the giant queen dragon showed there are evil hostile dragons is completely ignored and forgotten about and the movie never cares about Drago's side of the story just because he's the villain never addressing that Drago technically has a good point about dragons and treats him like he's flat out 100% in the wrong without any grey areas.
And then there was this whole scrapped plot planned for him in The Hidden World where he got development and redemption making it seem they wanted to make him intentionally sympathetic.
Dreamworks I hope you were intending to make Drago intentionally sympathetic cuz if you were intending to make him intentionally unsympathetic YOU WERE DOING IT WRONG!

Surprised he didn't talk about Light Yagami and L. Perfect representation of a villain being a protagonist, whilst simultaneously having a yin/yang relationship to the antagonistic hero, L.

It would be a few days long video if he was going to talk about all villains with a good or decent backstory! Thanos, Magneto,Doom just few that I remembered at this moment..

Drizzt Do Urden DR. DOOFENSCHMIRTZ

Ok it’s played for laughs but he gets a backstory developed over the entire series and it actually has consistent continuity

Maul, Megatron, THANOS, senator, DIO,

I think Light was unquestionably still the villain despite being the protagonist. Similar to Arthur Fleck from Joker or almost any GTA protagonist.

@L. Price tag. exactly, he’s a ‘villain’ , yet is the protagonist

Thank you i was thinking the exact same

Protagonist just means "leading character" aka MC. Any protag can be a villain, therefore Light WAS the villain.

@Z Zbut you always have to differentiate between the two uses of villain. The one just for stories for the antagonist like zuko and the normal meaning of villain as in a despicable horrible person like light yagami

@Poké- Champ There are different variations of what a villain is, I'm just getting at the point of protagonists being villains.

@GoldenBunnies True. Zuko stopped being the villain to me when Iroh shared that story about how Zuko got his scar and why he was banished and forced to hunt down the avatar. Zuko was just a boy desperate for his father's love and approval. Zuko just wanted to restore his honor. He just wanted to be accepted back by his father and his nation. He had to realize that he didn't fail his father, his father failed him.

Everyone knows zuko isn't the villain, the true villain is aang. Poor cabbage man :<

@milotheaxolotl lmaooo so tru

Iida pfp ❤️❤️❤️

@Cinna Junkie lmao yessss

that's what a villain is

thats debatable as the manga ending of death note was essentially light was right and near damned humanity as the world that was once fearful of of lights power devolved into chaos once they heard he died

Light actually stands between an antihero and an antivillain. If we take an Antihero as someone who does heroic things for bad reasons (like Saitama who is an hero for his entertainment) and an Antivillain who does bad things but for good reasons, Light would stand between those two archetypes. His Goal is to create a Crime free utopia, which is a noble goal, but his motivation is that he wants to be accepted as a God for achieving that. That makes him an Anti-hero initially, but then he also starts killing innocent people he considers a threat to him which shifts him towards the antivillain side of the spectrum.

100%. I remember a family friend of mine once told me that ATLAB was truly about Zuko finding himself and realizing Iroh is all the family he will ever need, but was brilliantly placed in the background of the events Aang and his friends are up to. I wish I could word it the way he did, it was absolutely brilliant.

@Prital Bamnodkar An antivillain is a villain that thinks what he is doing is right, so Light is just an antivillain.

I've watched death note 5 times through now. The most recent time I watched it I did so with one of my brothers who hadn't seen it before and he pointed out an interesting perspective to me.

L isn't really a good guy. He has a complete disregard for the law and doesn't seem to value life much either. He is guilty of invasion of privacy by placing cameras in the Yagami and (I can't recall the other family name) households. He didn't even go talk to the Japanese government or police about getting permission, he just did it. And no, just because the Yagami family's father says it's alright does not mean it's legal. Imagine how pissed off you'd be if you found out that your father approved of putting cameras in your house, including your bedroom and all the bathrooms. And secondly he is guilty of torture and harassment when he "arrests" Misa, straps her down in a straight jacket, blindfolds her and keeps her in place with no outside contact for months with only a small amount of forensic evidence that would not fly in court. Not to mention we learn that he is willing to work with known criminals because it benefits him and he didn't just decide that because the Kira case is so hard to crack, he's obviously known these people for a while and has worked with them before. I'm not even sure I'd consider him an anti hero, because I don't see his goals as altruistic. He isn't trying to stop Kira because it's the right thing to do and he sees Kira as a horrible person. He's trying to stop him because L needs to prove that he's the best. No-one will outsmart him, he is the #1 (and #2 and #3) detective in the world. This case fascinates him and he is driven more by the fact that he's enjoying having a near equal of intelligence to fight against than he is by wanting to save the world from being placed under a dictator who will have literally every human being fear for their life on a daily basis.

We only call L the hero because he's trying to stop someone that is so obviously a villain that despite how villainous L acts he doesn't even compare. So I don't see it as a fight between hero and villain. I see it as a fight between two villains, one is just trying to take over the world while the other just wants to be the smartest person there is no matter what he has to do to prove that.

@FrigidOfDoom Where did I say it was a fight between an hero and a villain? Because I never said such a thing. What you said is totally irrevelant to what I said.

@FrigidOfDoom Alright bro I gotta give you a round of applause for this one. I've always been aware that he's willing to bend rules, but the way you layed it down is mind blowing.

@fralegend015 I wasn't responding to you, I was just adding another talking point to the conversation. Something interesting I thought about and figured this would be the section where people would talk about it

It's like travis bickle in taxi driver

@Z Z well, overall light IS the villain, def, and while L or near could be considered villains because from lights perspective, (and the story’s POV) they ARE. however they seem more like Zuko, the opposing force rather than villain, to be the conflict for our protagonist, but not necessarily villains.

@FrigidOfDoom very true, except personally, i still don’t exactly see L as a villain, like I don’t think it’s a battle between two villains, because L def doesn’t want to be the smartest person in the world, he just wants to crack the case, and will use any means to do so. L has never really cared abt being the smartest, sure he might not rlly care abt Kira and how he’s dictator, and doesn’t want to stop him for any reason other than solving the case, but that’s it. He just likes the challenge of trying to solve a case. Especially one like the Kira case.He more so bends the rules than break them, so personally he teeters on villain for me. He obviously isn’t exactly a good guy, but I wouldn’t say he’s a villain either. Idk just my two cents.

@GoldenBunnies L and Near are more like heroic antagonists, since they aren't evil but they are opposing Light, the protagonist of the show. I wouldn't really say they're the same as Zuko since what Zuko is trying to do IS evil (kidnapping the avatar and such) but Zuko isn't evil himself.

@FrigidOfDoom ok

@GoldenBunnies I understand your position, but man, even the first time I watched the show, when he tortured Misa I just couldn't think of him as a hero any more. At least for me that's where he crosses the line from bending the rules to outright breaking them. He just does whatever he wants and that world is lucky he usually wants to crack cases that will lead to stopping bad people from doing more bad things.

I suppose I can concede that his goal is not to be the smartest person in the world but that's not incredibly different from him wanting to crack the hardest case there is.

But even look at his successors. Obviously Mello has no moral code, he leads a crime gang and when he gets the death node just straight up murders like a dozen innocent investigators because his goal was just to crack the case before N did.

I'd have to re-watch a few episodes to call out specific references but N does seem to at least have an inkling of care that Kira plans to take over the world and wants to stop that, but the impression I got is that his main goal was just to prove that he was a worthy successor to L by cracking the case L could not. Also N seems to have the same lack of empathy L did. When his team dies around him he shows nothing. No sadness, no regret, no guilt for not being able to protect them. Nothing. He is completely devoid of all care for human life.

Maybe my morals are different from most, but not caring about how much life is lost is the absolute worst a person can be. I just cannot identify anyone like that as anything but a villain.

The Japanese police however, are all heroes to me. All of them pursue the Kira case because they cannot allow Kira to create the new world in his image. They all put their lives on the line despite some of them being underqualified for the job and every time there is a situation that puts more lives at risk they do not hesitate to endanger themselves further to try and protect them. And now that I think about it, the fact that the police are such heroes and they are working with L and rarely condemn his actions makes it much easier to think of L as a hero.

@L. Price tag. Carl Johnson is considered to be more of an anti-hero because, he maybe living in a life of crime, but he's nowhere as cruel as other GTA characters (depending on the player) and he cared about his family.

@Mr. Friendship Yeah, it does depend a lot on the player. Going by story alone, CJ and Franklin aren’t that bad, even if they are criminals but characters like Trevor or Tommy Vercetti are definitely villains.

@Pepsi Man Light was going completely out of control with his power. It was implied that he was going to kill people basically just for being lazy and already approved of the deaths of his own subordinates because they simply weren’t portraying him the way he wanted. Had Light continued, he would have made a global dictatorship which would have been much worse to live in than it was without crime and the creators of Deathnote themselves basically said that Light was probably the most evil character in the story. Near actually saved humanity from the oppression of an immature, narcissistic sociopath and the only reason a large portion of the fandom says otherwise is because the story is told from Light’s perspective.

@FrigidOfDoom He didn’t really torture Misa though. Sure, he was holding her captive for months and putting her under psychological pressure, but he wasn’t necessarily torturing her. Besides, Misa literally couldn’t care less about the whole thing when she was released which would indicate that what she went through wasn’t really that bad. I’m not saying L’s a full on perfect hero, he definitely isn’t, but I think people often make him out to be far worse than he is. Although, I do agree that Mello was more of a villain, even if he does kind of redeem himself in the end.

@L. Price tag. You don't have to be peeling someone's fingernails off to be torturing them. Putting psychological pressure on them and keeping them in an almost sensory depraved state for months is absolutely torture. A large majority of people would have PTSD for the rest of their lives from what Misa went through. How she isn't disturbed is beyond me, though I guess she already has several mental issues. Honestly with the way she acts afterwards it seems like her mind completely dumped all memories of the incident just so that she could remain somewhat sane.

Also no, one good action (which I don't even see what he did as fully altruistic), even if it costs you your life, does not make up for the careless murder of tens of innocents. Mello is not redeemed. If he had survived what he did I would still have put him in prison for the rest of his life, on death row preferably.

@FrigidOfDoom fair enough. Misa herself wasn’t exactly innocent though and there was undeniable proof that she was the second Kira, so she’s not really a completely harmless civilian. Like I said, I’m not saying that L was a perfect hero, he was going to allow people to die after all. But the thing is that I can’t really blame him considering what they were up against. That’s why I don’t really have too much of an issue with Misa’s psychological torture because she was definitely evil herself and what she knows could potentially save the world from global oppression. Still kind of extreme though. I don’t think that Mello was at all heroic or redeemed himself, I was just just saying that because a lot of people seem to think that his sacrifice at the end made up for it, but I don’t agree. He kills several innocent agents and traumatised a young girl. I take issue with this and not Misa’s torture because Sayu was actually innocent.

@L. Price tag. As I stated in my original comment, L did not have enough evidence to arrest Misa. The only piece of evidence he had was that apparently they found some of her DNA with the packaging used for the tapes sent to Sakura TV. Even if it is a 100% match, which is extremely rare, forensic evidence like this is not viable in court. It could have been planted there or there can be multiple people with DNA so similar that our machines cannot tell the difference between them and we don't have everyone's DNA examined and on file. The only purpose of these kinds of evidence is to give a direction in which the investigators can start looking. It makes her a suspect but it is FAR from damning evidence. And even so, torturing anyone is illegal. If their crime is bad enough they will be put on death row, where they will receive a quick, painless death. And L does not have authority to carry out legal judgement. He is an investigator, not a judge.

"I’m not saying that L was a perfect hero, he was going to allow people to die after all. But the thing is that I can’t really blame him considering what they were up against."
This is where things will really start to differ from person to person. Most people have a line where they believe it's okay to commit an immoral act if it is to prevent an even more immoral act or acts from happening. Honestly, given the situation of near inevitable world control being given to Kira I'd agree that it's worth commiting some normally immoral acts to prevent that from happening. My issue comes, however, not in just the acts commited, but in the way they are commited. I don't recall L often saying "I don't like doing this" or "Circumstances have forced me to this point" or even showing much reluctance to the terrible things he does. He seems to do them with no problem, like it's just another day for him, implying that he would do these things normally anyway as long as they were a more effective way to get results.

@FrigidOfDoom ehh fair enough.

@FrigidOfDoom I will say though, that L still doesn’t seem to be a complete emotionless sociopath given that he seemed genuinely distraught when one of his agents died and that he went out of his way to save Matsuda even though he was making things difficult for him. Once again I’m not saying he’s perfect but I think people don’t really give him enough overall credit given that a lot of people seem to assume that he and Light are just as bad as each other which I just simply don’t think is completely true. I know that his immediate choice to spy on people and hold people prisoner and his whole casual approach to the whole thing might seem questionable, which it is, but as I said before, Misa just didn’t care less after L was supposedly holding her prisoner for months so I don’t know if that’s really a completely reliable method of reading what a character is really thinking. Maybe I’m just giving him too much credit though but still.

Yeah as a child I was rooting for Jerry as an adult I realized how annoying he was.

All Tom wanted was peace and quiet but he kept getting beated and tortured

@Rocky Croods because jerry was bothering him too much and getting him In trouble

@Rocky Croods tom was constantly mocked, betrayed, fooled, made fun of , berated, abused, isolated, etc. He became jealous and crazed. When he couldn't even catch a single mouse and the mouse mocked him for it, it became personal and tom was determined to prove himself against something. Im pretty sure the owner expected tom to catch mice "OR ELSE" so ...tom isn't really a villain. he's a cat. cats eat and hunt mice. that is what they do. and that is what they were used for, for a long time. Mice bring disease and stink up our house and food, they chew holes in shit, and if you save them they are ungrateful. (mice, not rats, we all know rats can be good and wholesome). Jerry thinks its fun and games and berates the poor cat, tom just wants a win and to live. Ofc, his attitude and response to things tend to backfire on him, so tom accidently causes his own downfall sometimes but that's really hard to control or understand especially for a cat. so its not fair to call him a villain imho... also considering that this is the humans house/land and they have a cat they want to keep "dirty mice" from stuff, then yes, in retrospect Tom is the Protaganist and jerry is the villain/antagonist (antagonising the humans land/food etc and the cat.), Invading someones home to make it his own he doesn't care, he is selfish and takes what he wants and laughs about it. while the good guy tries hard to defend his place and get a meal or survive. but his actions make him more antihero like or antivillain? :/ not sure... Now SYLVESTER is another story, he goes after a bird that rightfully is there by the human. so that is (her?) home too.

lmao i aint gonna lie as a kid i wanted tom to kill jerry

@Rocky Croods Jerry may be good, but Tom may not be good as well. From my perspective, both Tom and Jerry are neutral.

@Rocky Croods well one he is a cat 2 have you seen the shit Jerry did to tom? Even when tom was minding his own business

@Rocky Croods And Jerry tries to escape from Tom.

Always rooted for Tom

@Real_Slim_Shady I rooted for both Tom and Jerry at the same time.

@adeleine the artist to quote Edward Nigma “Fascinating”

@AlphaTengua VENTz oh wow, a whole paragraph....LMAO

@Nergal ❤️ interesting. I guess that makes you the odd one out

@Rocky Croods tom trying to eat jerry is not evil its just nature. Just like a lion eating a zebra or a spider eating a fly. Its just the natural order. And niether is good or evil. They are just the protagonist and antagonist of their story the oposing forces, like discuss in de video here.

lmao honestly i just thought tom and jerry were friends, never thought of them as "hero" or "villain", and all the fights were how friends fight, and was just fooling around. idk

@Rocky Croods dude you realize that jerry and Tom are best friends. Like in one episode jerry fakes death and tom gets out a prepared med kit to save him. It was shown in the movie their best friends. There’s a theory that Tom pretends to chase jerry so he doesn’t get kicked out of the house if he doesn’t chase or try to kill jerry

@Rocky Croods because you kept saying Tom was against jerry and trying to eat him

@Rocky Croods I’m saying it to you because you are basically saying Tom is evil

Even as a kid I rooted for Tom

I always routed for Tom as a kid, just like i always routed for Squidward as a kid

@Rocky Croods And you are forgetting that Jerry constantly torments Tom. They both do terrible things to each other. It's not just that Jerry runs because Tom is trying to eat him, sometimes Tom chases him because Jerry steals stuff like cheese or something.

Even as a child, I could see that Jerry was just getting in Tom's way of living a peaceful life.

There were some episodes where Tom totally deserved it, however.

@Rocky Croods you have never seen the show lol. Or maybe you saw the shitty reboot were jerry is good

@Rocky Croods im probably less of a normie than you are

I thought that the actually plot was that Tom and Jerry are friends, but they have to fight so that Tom doesn’t get thrown out.

Finally. Someone. I hated that mouse when i was watching it.

This is to anyone who think's Tom isn't evil;
Look, i always liked Tom more too... But you can't just say "he's a cat" and expect that to not make him evil...
That's not how evil works... You don't need to understand what evil is to do evil things...
That's frankly an EXTREMELY dangerous way to think, as you are somewhat unconsciously justifying horrific acts just because "it's natural"... (or something along those lines)

I love cats, and i love eating meat, but justifying hunting another living being just because it's what predators do is morally speaking just disgusting... At least most humans want to, and *do*, let our "prey" live good lives before we eat them... I know that's not always the reality, but still... Nature is, in fact, pretty fucking evil...

Thank you for comming to my Tom & Jerry Ted talk, lol
(but seriously though)

@Rocky Croods I guess better to be a „normie“ than a freak stuck on „hE tRieD tO EaT JeRrY“ in a loop