I can’t believe that Sawtooth being falsely accused of being a groomer happened a year after Tootsie4Ever was falsely accused of being a pred. It was so easy for some people to fall for the false accusations as well myself included. Some of these cancel culture numpties could frame other big creators in the future, and I also could be one of them as you said you were. If I was falsely accused of being a pred though, I wouldn’t panic but would keep my cool and try to gather all the evidence I could to prove my innocence in a video.
omg i remember finding him mid lockdown and loved his content(i was 12) and 5 months ago in december i benched watched all of his videos again because my little sister started watching mlp. the whole time during winter break we watched sawtooth. i can’t believe this is all unfolding right in front of us
I don't know enough information about this to know how correct you are. 15 and 18 isn't even the worst thing. It would only be bad if he solicited illegal images from her. Tons of places have Romeo and Juliet laws that would make the 3 year gap perfectly fine.
As far as my take on Romeo and Juliet laws goes, I do know that in Australia that it’s legal for someone to be in a romantic relationship if they’re of a similar age. A 15 year old and a 19 year old being in a romantic relationship isn’t bad at all, and I think it’s okay as long as it’s not sexual which it wasn’t until the girl was 18.
Hi Dulcet, not a white pony here on comic's server. Think you and I discussed these laws before there? (15 and 18 is protected in my state, for instance)
@Nick Ronca i think the accusation's issue is about 'grooming' and not 'pedophilia' these are different. clearly pedophilia is not what occurred. the accusation of grooming does matter, but the evidence doesn't seem to support that this occurred either.
@Tarp Nitsua - I believe that legally, "grooming" means trying to encourage actual illegal activity, like a sexual relationship with someone under the age of consent. Of course colloquially people use that word in all sorts of different ways, often even when the younger person is above 18 from the start....In any case, clearly nothing that Sawtooth did was even remotely illegal, but the problem is that much of the "left" these days has adopted a rather puritanical cancel-culture, while much of the "right' is obsessed with "grooming."
And I also think that another factor at play here is the fact that many people in our society are suspicious of "bronies," thinking that they're somehow creepy or pedos....Of course logically it doesn't follow that someone who enjoys a tv show at least nominally geared towards little girls (albeit one with frequent allusions that usually only older viewers will get), that he wants to have sex with little girls!....But, logical or not, that's a lot of people's instinctive reaction.
So I think there's a certain defensiveness on the part of many in the "brony" community - to where they feel compelled to quickly denounce anything or anyone which could even possibly be interpreted as "pedo," even if such an interpretation requires HUGE STRETCHES.
When I was in high school, some of the seniors in my class were 19 - if they'd repeated a grade or started school a year late. And nobody would have considered it especially remarkable (much less pedo!) if a high school senior were to date a high school sophomore. The cancellation of Sawtooth based on this was COMPLETELY UNHINGED, as far as I'm concerned.
@BikeLion your explination here supports my understanding of what the case had been. If this is the case as it seems to be, i am in agreement with you. In fact, i know people on facebook who were 15 and 16 and got together with 19 year olds and are happily married with kids these days. No one ever had them arrested or slandered online.
DUDE FR i am literally 14, and honestly, if this happened to me.. i would know EXACTLY how to deal with it. I would know what things i need to prioritise in my life, and what to not. Sure, now everyone is different in their own way, and everyone gains maturity at a certain point in their lives, for some it's early, for some it's a little late, but the fact that this girl didnt even give up when she was FREAKING SIXTEEN YEARS OLD! that just mortifies me even more, she KNEWW what was coming upon her, and yet she still chose to "be in love, and fantasise about her prince charming" and that's just concerning and even after all this, she still has no regret of what she has done, and she completely blames it on sawtooth, and especially now, since she can view the whole situation as an adult, this just further proves the lack of maturity this person has If there's anyone she should blame here, is herself, and that's all i have to say, period.
Teenage crushes are normal, everyone has them, but sometimes, people often get carried away with it.. which is not right... And yes, i've had crushes too, i've pictured myself being with them in the future, but i haven't gone OVERBOARD with it i am mature enough to know that a crush is just a crush, and you should never be in rush to fall in love love falls towards you when the time is right, it's not something we can control.
and if friendship is magic has taught me something, it has taught me that friendship is the best kind of love there is, and if you have that, you have everything. which is why, i am not choosing sides, i do not mean to create a commotion with anyone, but all i wanna do is get my opinion heard, and let others view this from my perspective. No hard feelings, only friendship.
It's gonna take days, weeks, or even months until something good comes out of this for Sawtooth. At first I was against him but due to little information, I had to take time in order to do more research.
I was watching one of Sawtooths vids when I saw the Who Is Kevin? Vid was changed to private. First I thought he probably just didn't like some of his old theories and decided to delete them. Then I went to the theory on why Flurry heart was born an alicorn. That one changed to private like 3 minutes in. Then I start panicking, I check his yt homepage, AND ALL OF A SUDDEN ALL THE VIDEOS ARE PRIVATE AND HIS PROFILE PIC ISNT THERE AND IM CRYING FOR LIKE A GOOD HOUR. Im glad I finally found out about these accusations that obviously aren't true. Im gonna go scream into my pillow now about how ridiculous this all is.
Yep, I read CMC Scootaloo’s thread about what really happened, and if you read what happened carefully you’ll see that the girl was the one responsible for it all and is attempting to push the blame onto Sawtooth. Nothing he did was manipulative at all, and he tried to warn her to stop because it would ruin her career. She was the real manipulator in all of this guilt tripping him afterwards claiming it was his fault. It’s easy for many of Twitter’s cancel culture numpties to fabricate shit and bend the story around like that, this is similar to what happened with the Tootsie4Ever situation when the “victim” was a fraud and manipulated him. Even after he blocked me, CMC Scootaloo was right about this as he’s always correct 95% of the time. Typical CMC Scootaloo W!
Well to be fair we've had alot of drama in the fandom. All the fireyjoker stuff, toonkritic and others. Though toon actually was just bad and I'm glad he's nolonger part of the fandom
What exactly happened with firey joker / aka firebrand Fob equestria?
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Nick Ronca2023-02-17 07:50:07 (edited 2023-02-17 07:56:36 )
I agree with everything for saying here, here are my thoughts: FYI I'm going to use they/them pronouns when talking about Sawtooth because they officially go by they/them/she/her pronouns. I using they/them for Sawtooth since the victim goes by she/her pronouns, so it's immediately obvious who I'm talking about. I don't know if they're nonbinary or a transwoman, but if you weren't aware of this I don't blame you, I wasn't either for the longest time. Anyways here are my thoughts: 1. I agree with you that her grades suffering are her fault for obvious reasons. Enough said. 2. I do think that they [Sawtooth] viewed it as a romantic relationship when they were 19 and she was 15. They admitted in the community post that after a certain point they started to have romantic attractions back towards the minor, and while they originally rejected the minor, when the minor asked them out again later, they said yes. 3. I agree that they aren't a groomer but for different reasons. Grooming is specifically defined as trying to establish a connection with a minor specifically to make them vulnerable with the intent of sexual assault. Not only do I see no evidence from either story that that there was ever an intent of sexual assault, but I also see evidence against it. First of all, they waited until she was old enough to consent to make the relationship sexual because they knew it would be illegal otherwise. If there was an intent of sexual assault to a minor, they wouldn't have cared to wait, they would have just done it one way or an other. Maybe I am wrong and the definition of what qualifies as grooming is more nuanced than that definition, but the "intent of SA" part seems very important, and I think if it was the goal then they wouldn't have waited for the minor to be of age before they did so. In addition to that, I don't know how much this matters towards whether or not something counts as grooming, but it says in the definition that it's when someone establishes an emotional connection in order to SA them, but the emotional connection was already established before they even liked her back, so the connection is what made them fall in love with the victim, not that they already loved the victim and so tried to form an emotional connection. That second point might just be a technicality and completely not matter, but the first part still stands in my opinion. With all that being said, I also have to fault Sawtooth for some things. 1. They dated a 15 year old when they were 19. 2. They didn't understand the lack of consent of the other person being in a relationship with them. They used faulty logic of "if they're the one's pursuing me, then it's okay because I'm not pressuring them". To Sawtooths credit, while it doesn't make the situation better, I feel like it does make the intent better if they didn't realize this as opposed to if they did realize this and did it anyways. 3. They didn't understand the power they had over the other person not only as an adult, but also as a youtuber who the person idolized. Here is the thing though. While they should have realized the power they had over her in terms of the age gap, the power in terms of being a youtuber, I also wouldn't have realized at 19 years old. Like if I had a channel as big as theirs at 19 years old, and let's just say me and someone my age who watches my channel got close and started online dating, I don't think I would've realized at 19 years of age the power I had over them. Like I wouldn't be dating a 15 year old so that eliminates the age gap power, but the youtuber and someone they idolize power would've still existed and I wouldn't have realized it. 4. They didn't back off when the girls mother threatened to call the cops. Tbf, the mother allowed them to speak to each other still under strict conditions, but still. Then I think there was a point where the mother stopped allowing them to speak entirely, but they wrote letters to each other secretly. 5. And this is the BIG one. As soon as she turned 18, Sawtooth immediately wanted to get back together with her and things almost immediately became sexual. She said that she was uncomfortable with photos. Whether she means receiving photos and sending photos or merely sending photos, I do not know. If she meant receiving and sending and Sawtooth was sending overly sexual photos anyways (like dick pics), then unfortunately that is a form of sexual assault, even if it's not how we typically think of the word. Although it depends on how sexual the pictures were. On the other hand, if she merely meant uncomfortable with sending pictures then there was no sexual assault, because she herself made it clear in her story that Sawtooth never forced her to send pictures. My main point is this. After not being able to talk for like a year now, mere HOURS after she became 18, Sawtooth messaged her wanting to get back together and the relationship immediately became sexual. That is very weird. In conclusion, Sawtooth is at fault for some things, but I don't think they are anywhere near as bad as people are making it out to be.
Great comment, I am unfortunately aware and sorry I misgendered Sawtooth in the video, I was just angry at the world, angry at the "victim" for everything I said in the video, angry at Sawtooth for submitting to her, angry at myself for not doing this as soon as this situation started, angry that no one else made a video like this, and so my brain unfortunately said "He, because voice", which is obviously a bad thing, but a mistake on my part. Thanks for making this informative comment.
@Comic Field It's okay, because of the voice I always have to remind myself not to use he/him pronouns. Eventually it will become habit for me, but for now I still need to remind myself. Do you think taking into weight everything I said, do you still think Sawtooth didn't do much wrong, or do you think it's more split between the two of them? Because the grades are entirely her fault, but Sawtooth still decided it would ne a good idea to enter a relationship in the first place, with someone who not only they had power over age wise, but also had power over in terms of being a youtuber, even if they didn't realize the power they had over her, which seems to be people's main point. Although they jump from that to therefore they're a child groomer/predator, which I already explained why I not only don't believe is true, but actively believe it is false.
@Nick Ronca I still stand by my opinion that Sawtooth did very little wrong. Like I said in the video, from Sawtooth's side, it didn't seem romantic at all.
@Comic Field one more question, I don't know if this channel even existed back then, but if you were ever online dating a fan of the channel when you were 19 (let's just say an other 19 year old) do you think you would've ever realized the power balance you have over them in terms of being a youtuber who they look up to? Because as I said in my comment, I never would've known about or considered it if I did that at the age of 19. Not that I'll be interested in dating someone who only knows me merely from viewing my channel anyways, but still.
@Comic Field I have just read you community post, I just want to make one more comment, rereading the story from the BewareSawtoothWaves instagram account, I think you're right about Sawtooth not viewing it as a relationship, because I read a sentence saying "Sawtooth and I have been waiting for me to turn 18 since 2017 (when i was 14 and 15, so approx 3.5 years or so of waiting to be official). because we knew dating at any time prior would be a bad look on them considering the age gap (4 years and 3 months apart) despite it technically being legal because of both our states Romeo and Juilet laws, but we decided it would've been best to wait til I was of legal adult age.". So yeah, they weren't even dating, and if that's the case then now the worst thing Sawtooth did goes from actually dating a 15 year old when they were 19 in the first place to "acting?" as if they were dating the minor. I don't know the exact words for it.
I so agree with all of this! Also please watch out for this Vixymix person who sent me a literal death threat when I'm 15 and they are legally an adult. They side with the "victim."
@mona 🦌 Good to know I'm just warning you that Vixymix here just doesn't own up to anything he does. My friend tried calling them out on instagram in their comments but were blocked and silenced. I find it really hypocritical about how Vixy here is so self righteous and sides with the "victim" but then thinks its ok to send death threats to other people who disagree and probably will use "Oh I have ADHD" once they are finally caught. Also talking behind people's backs is just really cowardly. I personally believe if you have something you want to say, you say it to a person's face and not behind their back.
The exact age gap was actually 4 years and 3 months, so a bit bigger than what you thought. Still, as I already stated in my very lengthy comment, not only is there no reason to think it was grooming, but there is reason to believe that it wasn't. Grooming specifically means making a minor vulnerable with the intent of sexual assault, and there is no reason to think the intent was ever sexual assault. For one, Sawtooth didn't make the relationship sexual until they were of age. If the intent was sexual assault, then Sawtooth wouldn't have waited. In addition, even when it did become sexual, Sawtooth never forced the other girl to send pictures. Again, why would she do this if the intent was sexual assault?
Something that annoys me is just the fact that a lot of people online just see 2 yr + age gap = Grooming. I’ve seen it happen time and time again even if the person in question did nothing wrong.
When I was in high school, some of the seniors in my class were 19 - if they'd repeated a grade or started school a year late. And nobody would have considered it especially remarkable (much less pedo!) if a high school senior were to date a high school sophomore. The cancellation of Sawtooth based on this was COMPLETELY UNHINGED, as far as I'm concerned.
Yeah sawtooth is innocent and the victim is also at fault. Said Instagram posts really annoyed me . Almost attention seeking and having too much mental health issues with family and guilting sawtooth in the way of gaslighting.with the obsession with being with a idol over common sense of thinking about if you’re doing is right and if maybe you’re the problem too , mental health, family abuse and school issues , showing so many more things that she is the one at fault more
I read both sides and tbh the victim (whom I wouldn’t call a victim at this point) just used it for clout like sawtooth got betrayed, Sawtooth is innocent
I didn't know until I went to his chanell to watch a few videos and there was nothing. It explains alot and I hope he comes back because I love his videos so many people do and I hope this works out in his favour
Hmm this analysis was pretty interesting to watch. I’m still not sure who to support here, because I think Sawtooth should’ve backed off when she started admitting feelings. I AM of the opinion that the age gap here is pretty much nonsense. It’s complicated
This stuff happens all the time, I got accused of raping a girl on another continent while I was homeless on someone's couch. it was like "dude he's literally sleeping homeless right here he didn't get a 2000 dollar plane ticket and touch you lmao"
@Comic Field I can appreciate that thinking, but my thoughts is because this is such a witch-hunty-happy subject, having more voices pointing out where the most of the fucked-uppedness comes from when people have already seen but not paid attention to what happened. Her apology didn't undo anything but save face.
I believe that the girl definitely had some blame. but he Cleary could have stopped himself but he still didn't he knew she was not the age of consent and you can't just make the excuse that she knew that it was wrong that's not a complete storie he is not innocent but that doesn't mean he should forever be shuned. the girl could have also stopped but she was 15 the mind is not fully developed then she was blinded because she looked up to him.
1) The age of consent is for having sex. They didn't have sex, or even meet in person at all. And they didn't even have an sexually explicit conversations until the younger person turned 18.
2) Age of consent laws typically include a close age exemption, and in most US states the legal consent age is actually 16, not 18. (Many European countries set the age even lower.) In any event, the intent of such laws is to avoid a situation where a much older adult is trying to take advantage of a vulnerable teenager. It's NOT to punish a teenager who gets involved with someone just a few years younger. (Sawtooth was 19 when the correspondence started.)
3) Re: "the mind is not fully developed then" - This is true, but the mind actually isn't fully developed until around the age of 25. So shouldn't this same consideration be extended to Sawtooth as well?
4) While I've always thought of Sawtooth as male (with "BROny," "BRO-hoof," etc.), apparently Sawtooth uses "she" and "they" pronouns.....As I've noted in other comments though, I think most people's visceral anger towards Sawtooth wouldn't be there if they truly viewed Sawtooth as female.
@Runic - "Grooming" has a very specific legal definition, which requires the intent to do something illegal with the other person. So if a 40 year old guy talks with a 14 year old girl, gets to know her, etc. with the intent of getting her to meet him in person and have sex, while she's still under age then that's "grooming."
But Sawtooth and the younger woman never met in person, let alone had sex, he never asked her to, and they never even talked about sex until after she turned 18. So there's no "grooming" there to speak of.
And again, even if they had had sex, it would have been illegal in most states, due to close age exemptions, or if it were after her 16th birthday (in most states the legal age is 16), etc. So even in this hypothetical (which didn't happen), it STILL wouldn't have been "grooming," since "grooming" is only when there's the intention of getting the younger person to agree to illegal activity with you.
@Runic It sounds like your definition of "grooming" is "talking to people younger than you." And if you're going to play the "not fully developed brain" card, that actually finishes around the age of 25. So they're both "kids" if you look at it from that point of view. Keep in mind they still weren't trusted by the state to buy cigarettes when this started.
@lord451 - Technically he could buy legally cigarettes at 19, but not alcohol. But your larger point is 100% correct.
Everyone's going on about "but she was a minor!" - as if he were 35 or something, when he couldn't even legally buy a beer 🤦♂🤦♂
He'd actually would have been labeled a "minor" too when it came to getting into clubs that card people on the way in.
This whole case is a classic example of today's "woke" ideology going way too far - to the point where a high school senior dating a high school sophomore would somehow be seen as "grooming" or pedo.....It's crazy, and the sad part is that it makes a mockery of real victims of actual abuse by real predators.....When they get lumped in with cases like this, it just becomes a joke 😕
She doesn't, she just says it happened to my knowledge, but at the same time, she said it's on her Instagram, but I don't have Instagram. Sorry that happened to you though, and sorry that the "victim" of Sawtooth is basically mocking you and every other victim of grooming with this bs.
@Comic FieldI believe victims, however i can't believe either side just yet, as i stated i have no seen no proof what so ever, and again i have instagram, and i seen no proof, no dms, no rp, no nothing, and saw oh man saw, if they wanted to admit what they done they need to show proof.
And again i can't trust anyone either, so get someone who knows legal matter to look into it, you can't let someone get away with it like "it's no big deal" BECAUSE IT IS A BIG DEAL!!!
@Reese They've been manipulated into thinking they were in the wrong by the "victim", the "victim" made a page, and he was scared that if he tried to defend himself, people would hate him, so he surrendered.
@⛧DarkShadliy⛧ I can understand that, but I can't trust someone without any proof, who just made that account *this month*, they have no other accounts on social media, or any of that.
@Comic FieldTwitter, Tiktok, Instagram is all they have, i seen no proof but words, i am not going to claim their lying, however proof is a must for this type of stuff. i understand how hard it is to come forward i really do, but i wish to wait and see and not judge anyone till then.
But the way people are treating it is one-sided, and i understand that i really do but cases like these needs to be checked on both sides not just one and blindly believing either till the matter speaks for itself.
judgment should be made on proof and facts alone, not just words alone. If you want to take this seriously research into the matter.
@⛧DarkShadliy⛧ The problem is that there is nothing to research. Some girl just made accounts, and Sawtooth instantly surrendered because they were scared of their reputation falling, so they confessed to something that never happened. She has no traces of any other account she ever had, she has no proof of DMs, or of anything. I will admit, my words towards her in the video were a bit harsh, but I was angry at the time, so take it with a grain of salt.
@DarkyBoode32Alright everyone here is a waste of my time then, however none of y'all are looking into it correctly because you don't "meet the requirements" i have a few friends of mine that can look into this matter, and do a deep dive by contacting the victim themselves and saw as well to get the proof and the full story.
If anyone isn't going to do that then i don't know what to tell any of you! Get someone that covers these topics, because i am not going to bother my friends if this case is meaningless, do your own deep dive, do your own research, contact saw and the victim privately interview them or something!
@BikeLion Because she apologized and regretted her decisions, I decided to forgive her and respect that and unlist the video. I don't believe in priviting because that's just stupid, so I decided to unlist it.
@Comic Field - By "she" you mean Sawtooth?.....I'm still not used to referring to Sawtooth as "she," since Sawtooths online persona always seemed more male to me - BROny, BRO-hoof, etc. Also, I think the sort of visceral hatred, rage, and disgust that so many have directed at Sawtooth wouldn't be there if they truly viewed Sawtooth as female.
....If it were simply a matter of a 19 year old girl who started corresponding with a younger fan, the younger fan developed a crush on her, and the conversations became flirtatious. I think very few people would see this as a big deal at all.
Anyway, my sense is that Sawtooth was bullied into apologizing and making all of his content private, so I'll continue speaking out on Sawtooth's behalf, but I respect your decision to unlist, if that's what you feel is most appropriate.
I already talked to them about it, this was their response "I am unfortunately aware and sorry I misgendered Sawtooth in the video, I was just angry at the world, angry at the "victim" for everything I said in the video, angry at Sawtooth for submitting to her, angry at myself for not doing this as soon as this situation started, angry that no one else made a video like this, and so my brain unfortunately said "He, because voice", which is obviously a bad thing, but a mistake on my part.".
@Lautaro Roldan Pizzorno - I, and I think most others, are still not used to referring to Sawtooth as "she," since Sawtooths online persona always seemed male, with BROny, BRO-hoof, etc. Also, I think the sort of visceral hatred, rage, and disgust that so many have directed at Sawtooth wouldn't be there if they truly viewed Sawtooth as female.
....If it were simply a matter of a 19 year old girl who started corresponding with a younger fan, the younger fan developed a crush on her, and the conversations became flirtatious. I think very few people would see this as a big deal at all.
When people use labels like "predator," "groomer," etc., it seems to me that they're implicitly stating that they view Sawtooth as male - at least at a deeper, more visceral, level - even if they're nominally (at a much more superficial level) going along with the claimed gender identity and using preferred pronouns and such.
@BikeLion I get some people are not aware, which is why I've been trying to correct some people. If you know already and slip up it's okay but people have the right to correct you. It's not that Sawtooth's persona "seemed male", they simply hadn't come out yet at the time. I don't really see the point that using terms like "brony" and "brohoof" means someone identifies as male (despite obvious etymological root), there's plenty of cases to the contrary, and even if there weren't it really doesn't justify misgendering. Whether the reaction would be different if Sawtooth wasn't "viewed as male" is completely irrelevant hypothetical when deciding what pronouns to use for them. I don't think it's very respectful of trans people to say that everyone else is "just superficially respecting their pronouns". It's not like you can read minds to determine that anyway.
@Lautaro Roldan Pizzorno - I don't need to be able to "read minds" to make basic logical deductions. And I know that if people are angry at Sawtooth in a way that they wouldn't be at a 19 year old girl who started talking with a girl a few years older, then they don't truly see Sawtooth as a girl.
The visceral rage, loathing, disgust, etc. that's directed at Sawtooth is because ST is biologically male, and the younger person (whom most people (falsely) refer to as "the victim") is biologically female. So I know that it's superficial, because their actions show that they don't see ST as truly female....The same as the fact that women who are purely lesbian don't date "trans women," but do date "trans men" - for reasons that are entirely obvious! Actions speak louder than words.
Most people are gonna try to be polite, and use preferred pronouns, etc. But ultimately, at the end of the day, it's all about biological sex, not "gender identity." And deep down very very few people truly believe the popular "woke" platitudes like "trans-women ARE women" and "trans-men ARE men."
@BikeLion I don't think Sawtooth identifies as a girl. They are non-binary. And then the rest of your comment is transphobic so I don't really see a point in me trying to argue. Strange rant to go on when I just asked people to be respectful of Sawtooth's pronouns. I didn't even mention their actions, which are a separate issue.
@Lautaro Roldan Pizzorno - It's hardly "a separate issue" when it's the entire reason we're having this conversation in the first place.
Also, I know it's trendy for "woke" lefties to use words like "transphobic," but it really makes no sense at all. A phobia is a fear, in particular an irrational fear. And I don't have a fear of transsexuals, transvestites, etc., irrational or otherwise. I simply don't agree with your IDEOLOGY. That's not a phobia.
@BikeLion
phobia /ˈfəʊbɪə/ noun
an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something. In this case it's an aversion. I don't think the reason people use he/him pronouns for Sawtooth is that they're seeing her as a predator. I think it's just force of habit because she didn't come out until relatively recently and she was a very popular creator back when she did use he/him pronouns. In either case it's not a valid reason to refuse to use the correct pronouns. That's just being transphobic (once again, an aversion to trans people).
@Lautaro Roldan Pizzorno Yeah I don't like it when transphobes act like phobia only means fear and ignore the part where it is "or adversion" either, it's really annoying.
Look, this is the reason why meddling with pronouns causes so many problems for speech. As humans, we can generally determine biological sex based off of a variety of factors and thus have spent years of our lives building up this radar of being able to determine one's sex and thus using the pronouns we naturally associate with such. Everyone knows that Sawtooth is biologically male. It's not hateful to acknowledge that.
When we have situations like these that involved more than one biological sex, then our speech does rely on differentiating our uses of pronouns so we don't have to constantly clarify the names of who we're talking about. Whenever talking about this situation, I refer to Sawtooth with Male pronouns because it would be too confusing if I was saying "she" and not referring to Ash or "they" and not referring to the both of them. "He" is perfect in letting the reader know exactly who we're talking about at any given time. Any reasonable person would understand that this isn't a hateful taunt or a dehuminsation. It's simply a way of language.
@The Black Queen It's not confusing if you're decent at wording your statements (or just call each by their names). And even if it was, that's still not an excuse to misgender someone. Calling Sawtooth "he" is disrespecting their pronouns, regardless of how "perfect" you may think it is in expressing your message. I would not call it a "hateful taunt" but putting your needs before referring to a trans person's correctly is not exactly respectful.
@The Black Queen "Everyone knows that Sawtooth is biologically male. It's not hateful to acknowledge that.", it could or could not be. In it of itself it's not hateful to acknowledge that. However, the moment you suggest that "Sawtooth is biologically male and therefore they're a man", that is when it becomes hateful. Because it suggests that her gender identity needs to line up with her biological sex. As for "I refer to Sawtooth with Male pronouns because it would be too confusing if I was saying "she" and not referring to Ash or "they" and not referring to the both of them. "He" is perfect in letting the reader know exactly who we're talking about at any given time.", yes he would be easier for people to know who you're talking about, but the problem with the confusion that arises when talking about two people who use she/her pronouns will always arise no matter which two people you're talking about. As far as they goes, people use the singular they all the time even if they don't realize it. Plus for either one if you're using she/her or they/them for Sawtooth you can always just clarify you are referring to Sawtooth and people will know for all future reference. Point is this. If you refer to Sawtooth as a he when speaking privately to someone because you care more about being clear in who you're talking about than using a persons pronouns who isn't even in the room or chat room with you, then I can understand that and no one can force you otherwise. But if you're talking about her on a public space online then you should use her pronouns, and if you need to, make it clear who you're talking about. Again no one can force you too, but it's common courtesy to call people by what they want to be called by if long if it isn't hurting anyone else by doing so.
@Lautaro Roldan Pizzorno "putting your needs before referring to a trans person's correctly is not exactly respectful.", I agree but whether or not I do will depend on what my needs are. Like if I'm severely dehydrated and someone was withholding water from me and I had to misgender the trans person to get the water, I am choosing the water over not misgendering the trans person. Of course most of the time I won't misgender a trans person.
@Nick Ronca This very extreme hypothetical example just makes you sound like a weirdo. Why do people go to such lengths to argue using the most ridiculous scenarios when all I said was "don't misgender a trans person"?
@Lautaro Roldan Pizzorno I'm not going to constantly refer to Sawtooth as Sawtooth in every sentence. Y'all need to stop forcing your belief system on everybody. It's not disrespectful, nor is it hateful. Yes, I'm putting my preference of sentence structure above the need to be politically correct. If you have a problem with that, that's your issue alone and I don't have to cater to it.
@The Black Queen I was only providing the option of referring to them by name if you simply couldn't think of any other way to phrase your statements, options that they certainly do exist (and that is what I have been doing throughout this whole thread. Notice how you've been able to follow along? I digress). Gendering someone correctly (whether cis or trans) is not "following a belief system", it is simply the bare minimum of respect. Refusing to correctly gender a trans person is indeed transphobic though (not simply "politically incorrect", whatever that means). It might be your prerrogative but be aware of the fact that is what you're doing and people will react accordingly.
@Lautaro Roldan Pizzorno No, it literally is a belief system, based in the concept of gender identity being separate from sex. That is a subjective ideology and thus shall be treated as such like any other philosophy, religion, or set of values and beliefs. I'll use the pronouns when not in serious situations like these because there is a line to be drawn and I will prioritise the conversation over feelings. I've given you my reasoning for using the pronouns according to his biological sex because that's how I chose to go about the conversation. Don't like it? Deal with it.
@Lautaro Roldan Pizzorno Sorry for the three week late response but "This is a very extreme hypothetical example", dude that was literally the entire point shm. I said "the scenario depends" to make it seem like I would follow it up by something transphobic, only to subvert the expectation by mentioning a very extreme scenario. Also don't you think if I actually were transphobic, I wouldn't have come up with something that extreme? My comment was literally "it depends if my life is on the line then I'll misgender someone on that one specific scenario, otherwise I won't" and your response was literally "why are you coming up with extreme scenarios to justify misgendering someone?" even though I literally never said that. The point wasn't to justify misgendering a transgender person, the point was to show how extreme of a scenario it would take for me to do so because I'm not transphobic. It was supposed to be a half joke. Although if I knew that you weren't going to like the joke I wouldn't have made it. I'm sorry for sounding like a "weirdo", please forgive me.
I can’t believe that Sawtooth being falsely accused of being a groomer happened a year after Tootsie4Ever was falsely accused of being a pred. It was so easy for some people to fall for the false accusations as well myself included. Some of these cancel culture numpties could frame other big creators in the future, and I also could be one of them as you said you were. If I was falsely accused of being a pred though, I wouldn’t panic but would keep my cool and try to gather all the evidence I could to prove my innocence in a video.
10 likesI 100% agree, even since I read the apology I was so mad that he gave into idiots on the internet
16 likesjust because someone is a minor doesn’t make them exempt from common sense
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Yeah
2 likesomg i remember finding him mid lockdown and loved his content(i was 12) and 5 months ago in december i benched watched all of his videos again because my little sister started watching mlp. the whole time during winter break we watched sawtooth. i can’t believe this is all unfolding right in front of us
1 likeI don't know enough information about this to know how correct you are. 15 and 18 isn't even the worst thing. It would only be bad if he solicited illegal images from her. Tons of places have Romeo and Juliet laws that would make the 3 year gap perfectly fine.
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As far as my take on Romeo and Juliet laws goes, I do know that in Australia that it’s legal for someone to be in a romantic relationship if they’re of a similar age. A 15 year old and a 19 year old being in a romantic relationship isn’t bad at all, and I think it’s okay as long as it’s not sexual which it wasn’t until the girl was 18.
3 likesHi Dulcet, not a white pony here on comic's server. Think you and I discussed these laws before there? (15 and 18 is protected in my state, for instance)
2 likesThe relationship only became sexual after the girl was old enough to consent, and even then Sawtooth never forced her to send any pictures.
1 like@Nick Ronca i think the accusation's issue is about 'grooming' and not 'pedophilia' these are different. clearly pedophilia is not what occurred. the accusation of grooming does matter, but the evidence doesn't seem to support that this occurred either.
1 like@Tarp Nitsua - I believe that legally, "grooming" means trying to encourage actual illegal activity, like a sexual relationship with someone under the age of consent. Of course colloquially people use that word in all sorts of different ways, often even when the younger person is above 18 from the start....In any case, clearly nothing that Sawtooth did was even remotely illegal, but the problem is that much of the "left" these days has adopted a rather puritanical cancel-culture, while much of the "right' is obsessed with "grooming."
0 likesAnd I also think that another factor at play here is the fact that many people in our society are suspicious of "bronies," thinking that they're somehow creepy or pedos....Of course logically it doesn't follow that someone who enjoys a tv show at least nominally geared towards little girls (albeit one with frequent allusions that usually only older viewers will get), that he wants to have sex with little girls!....But, logical or not, that's a lot of people's instinctive reaction.
So I think there's a certain defensiveness on the part of many in the "brony" community - to where they feel compelled to quickly denounce anything or anyone which could even possibly be interpreted as "pedo," even if such an interpretation requires HUGE STRETCHES.
When I was in high school, some of the seniors in my class were 19 - if they'd repeated a grade or started school a year late. And nobody would have considered it especially remarkable (much less pedo!) if a high school senior were to date a high school sophomore. The cancellation of Sawtooth based on this was COMPLETELY UNHINGED, as far as I'm concerned.
@BikeLion your explination here supports my understanding of what the case had been. If this is the case as it seems to be, i am in agreement with you. In fact, i know people on facebook who were 15 and 16 and got together with 19 year olds and are happily married with kids these days. No one ever had them arrested or slandered online.
2 likes7:25
4 likesDUDE FR
i am literally 14, and honestly, if this happened to me.. i would know EXACTLY how to deal with it. I would know what things i need to prioritise in my life, and what to not.
Sure, now everyone is different in their own way, and everyone gains maturity at a certain point in their lives, for some it's early, for some it's a little late, but the fact that this girl didnt even give up when she was FREAKING SIXTEEN YEARS OLD! that just mortifies me even more, she KNEWW what was coming upon her, and yet she still chose to "be in love, and fantasise about her prince charming" and that's just concerning
and even after all this, she still has no regret of what she has done, and she completely blames it on sawtooth, and especially now, since she can view the whole situation as an adult, this just further proves the lack of maturity this person has
If there's anyone she should blame here, is herself, and that's all i have to say, period.
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Teenage crushes are normal, everyone has them, but sometimes, people often get carried away with it.. which is not right...
4 likesAnd yes, i've had crushes too, i've pictured myself being with them in the future, but i haven't gone OVERBOARD with it
i am mature enough to know that a crush is just a crush, and you should never be in rush to fall in love
love falls towards you when the time is right, it's not something we can control.
and if friendship is magic has taught me something, it has taught me that friendship is the best kind of love there is, and if you have that, you have everything. which is why, i am not choosing sides, i do not mean to create a commotion with anyone, but all i wanna do is get my opinion heard, and let others view this from my perspective.
No hard feelings, only friendship.
It's gonna take days, weeks, or even months until something good comes out of this for Sawtooth. At first I was against him but due to little information, I had to take time in order to do more research.
7 likesI read the whole thread he is innocent. I would’ve listened to him if I was the girl. Also that explains why he hasn’t posted in forever
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yup.
6 likesMe and Fluttercheer are DESTROYING the "victim", it's amazing, we're both Gigachads.
@Comic Field what’s that?
2 likes@Quinn Houk A very buff person who's amazing
4 likesIt's a meme, look it up lol
@Comic Field lol I will
2 likesI was watching one of Sawtooths vids when I saw the Who Is Kevin? Vid was changed to private. First I thought he probably just didn't like some of his old theories and decided to delete them. Then I went to the theory on why Flurry heart was born an alicorn. That one changed to private like 3 minutes in. Then I start panicking, I check his yt homepage, AND ALL OF A SUDDEN ALL THE VIDEOS ARE PRIVATE AND HIS PROFILE PIC ISNT THERE AND IM CRYING FOR LIKE A GOOD HOUR. Im glad I finally found out about these accusations that obviously aren't true. Im gonna go scream into my pillow now about how ridiculous this all is.
2 likesYep, I read CMC Scootaloo’s thread about what really happened, and if you read what happened carefully you’ll see that the girl was the one responsible for it all and is attempting to push the blame onto Sawtooth. Nothing he did was manipulative at all, and he tried to warn her to stop because it would ruin her career. She was the real manipulator in all of this guilt tripping him afterwards claiming it was his fault. It’s easy for many of Twitter’s cancel culture numpties to fabricate shit and bend the story around like that, this is similar to what happened with the Tootsie4Ever situation when the “victim” was a fraud and manipulated him. Even after he blocked me, CMC Scootaloo was right about this as he’s always correct 95% of the time. Typical CMC Scootaloo W!
6 likesWell to be fair we've had alot of drama in the fandom. All the fireyjoker stuff, toonkritic and others. Though toon actually was just bad and I'm glad he's nolonger part of the fandom
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What exactly happened with firey joker / aka firebrand Fob equestria?
0 likesI agree with everything for saying here, here are my thoughts: FYI I'm going to use they/them pronouns when talking about Sawtooth because they officially go by they/them/she/her pronouns. I using they/them for Sawtooth since the victim goes by she/her pronouns, so it's immediately obvious who I'm talking about. I don't know if they're nonbinary or a transwoman, but if you weren't aware of this I don't blame you, I wasn't either for the longest time. Anyways here are my thoughts:
6 likes1. I agree with you that her grades suffering are her fault for obvious reasons. Enough said.
2. I do think that they [Sawtooth] viewed it as a romantic relationship when they were 19 and she was 15. They admitted in the community post that after a certain point they started to have romantic attractions back towards the minor, and while they originally rejected the minor, when the minor asked them out again later, they said yes.
3. I agree that they aren't a groomer but for different reasons. Grooming is specifically defined as trying to establish a connection with a minor specifically to make them vulnerable with the intent of sexual assault. Not only do I see no evidence from either story that that there was ever an intent of sexual assault, but I also see evidence against it. First of all, they waited until she was old enough to consent to make the relationship sexual because they knew it would be illegal otherwise. If there was an intent of sexual assault to a minor, they wouldn't have cared to wait, they would have just done it one way or an other. Maybe I am wrong and the definition of what qualifies as grooming is more nuanced than that definition, but the "intent of SA" part seems very important, and I think if it was the goal then they wouldn't have waited for the minor to be of age before they did so. In addition to that, I don't know how much this matters towards whether or not something counts as grooming, but it says in the definition that it's when someone establishes an emotional connection in order to SA them, but the emotional connection was already established before they even liked her back, so the connection is what made them fall in love with the victim, not that they already loved the victim and so tried to form an emotional connection. That second point might just be a technicality and completely not matter, but the first part still stands in my opinion.
With all that being said, I also have to fault Sawtooth for some things.
1. They dated a 15 year old when they were 19.
2. They didn't understand the lack of consent of the other person being in a relationship with them. They used faulty logic of "if they're the one's pursuing me, then it's okay because I'm not pressuring them". To Sawtooths credit, while it doesn't make the situation better, I feel like it does make the intent better if they didn't realize this as opposed to if they did realize this and did it anyways.
3. They didn't understand the power they had over the other person not only as an adult, but also as a youtuber who the person idolized. Here is the thing though. While they should have realized the power they had over her in terms of the age gap, the power in terms of being a youtuber, I also wouldn't have realized at 19 years old. Like if I had a channel as big as theirs at 19 years old, and let's just say me and someone my age who watches my channel got close and started online dating, I don't think I would've realized at 19 years of age the power I had over them. Like I wouldn't be dating a 15 year old so that eliminates the age gap power, but the youtuber and someone they idolize power would've still existed and I wouldn't have realized it.
4. They didn't back off when the girls mother threatened to call the cops. Tbf, the mother allowed them to speak to each other still under strict conditions, but still. Then I think there was a point where the mother stopped allowing them to speak entirely, but they wrote letters to each other secretly.
5. And this is the BIG one. As soon as she turned 18, Sawtooth immediately wanted to get back together with her and things almost immediately became sexual. She said that she was uncomfortable with photos. Whether she means receiving photos and sending photos or merely sending photos, I do not know. If she meant receiving and sending and Sawtooth was sending overly sexual photos anyways (like dick pics), then unfortunately that is a form of sexual assault, even if it's not how we typically think of the word. Although it depends on how sexual the pictures were. On the other hand, if she merely meant uncomfortable with sending pictures then there was no sexual assault, because she herself made it clear in her story that Sawtooth never forced her to send pictures. My main point is this. After not being able to talk for like a year now, mere HOURS after she became 18, Sawtooth messaged her wanting to get back together and the relationship immediately became sexual. That is very weird.
In conclusion, Sawtooth is at fault for some things, but I don't think they are anywhere near as bad as people are making it out to be.
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Great comment, I am unfortunately aware and sorry I misgendered Sawtooth in the video, I was just angry at the world, angry at the "victim" for everything I said in the video, angry at Sawtooth for submitting to her, angry at myself for not doing this as soon as this situation started, angry that no one else made a video like this, and so my brain unfortunately said "He, because voice", which is obviously a bad thing, but a mistake on my part.
4 likesThanks for making this informative comment.
@Comic Field It's okay, because of the voice I always have to remind myself not to use he/him pronouns. Eventually it will become habit for me, but for now I still need to remind myself. Do you think taking into weight everything I said, do you still think Sawtooth didn't do much wrong, or do you think it's more split between the two of them? Because the grades are entirely her fault, but Sawtooth still decided it would ne a good idea to enter a relationship in the first place, with someone who not only they had power over age wise, but also had power over in terms of being a youtuber, even if they didn't realize the power they had over her, which seems to be people's main point. Although they jump from that to therefore they're a child groomer/predator, which I already explained why I not only don't believe is true, but actively believe it is false.
2 likes@Nick Ronca I still stand by my opinion that Sawtooth did very little wrong. Like I said in the video, from Sawtooth's side, it didn't seem romantic at all.
2 likes@Comic Field one more question, I don't know if this channel even existed back then, but if you were ever online dating a fan of the channel when you were 19 (let's just say an other 19 year old) do you think you would've ever realized the power balance you have over them in terms of being a youtuber who they look up to? Because as I said in my comment, I never would've known about or considered it if I did that at the age of 19. Not that I'll be interested in dating someone who only knows me merely from viewing my channel anyways, but still.
1 like@Nick Ronca I don't really have a way to answer that, because I've never online dated.
1 like@Comic Field Awe, okay. I've never online dated either, but I know I wouldn't have considered that power dynamic of youtuber fan at the age of 19.
1 like@Comic Field why is this video unlisted?
1 like@Lonely Fanboy48 read community post.
1 like@Comic Field I have just read you community post, I just want to make one more comment, rereading the story from the BewareSawtoothWaves instagram account, I think you're right about Sawtooth not viewing it as a relationship, because I read a sentence saying "Sawtooth and I have been waiting for me to turn 18 since 2017 (when i was 14 and 15, so approx 3.5 years or so of waiting to be official). because we knew dating at any time prior would be a bad look on them considering the age gap (4 years and 3 months apart) despite it technically being legal because of both our states Romeo and Juilet laws, but we decided it would've been best to wait til I was of legal adult age.". So yeah, they weren't even dating, and if that's the case then now the worst thing Sawtooth did goes from actually dating a 15 year old when they were 19 in the first place to "acting?" as if they were dating the minor. I don't know the exact words for it.
1 like@Nick Ronca - I largely agree, but I wouldn't call the younger person "the victim," as that only prejudices the entire discussion.
1 likeI so agree with all of this!
1 likeAlso please watch out for this Vixymix person who sent me a literal death threat when I'm 15 and they are legally an adult. They side with the "victim."
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hello do you mean vixymix 101?
1 like@mona 🦌 Yes, I do mean this person. Just a warning, they are much more toxic and immature than they appear.
0 likes@sonatadusk67 I know what you mean I had an ex boyfriend he talked behind my back and didn't like then I talk with other boys am happy that I left him
1 like@mona 🦌 Good to know I'm just warning you that Vixymix here just doesn't own up to anything he does. My friend tried calling them out on instagram in their comments but were blocked and silenced. I find it really hypocritical about how Vixy here is so self righteous and sides with the "victim" but then thinks its ok to send death threats to other people who disagree and probably will use "Oh I have ADHD" once they are finally caught.
0 likesAlso talking behind people's backs is just really cowardly. I personally believe if you have something you want to say, you say it to a person's face and not behind their back.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought this all seemed fishy
3 likesEven if this WAS completely true - 15 to 18 is a VERY small age gap. Its so bizarre that its considered "grooming" based on social status alone.
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The exact age gap was actually 4 years and 3 months, so a bit bigger than what you thought. Still, as I already stated in my very lengthy comment, not only is there no reason to think it was grooming, but there is reason to believe that it wasn't. Grooming specifically means making a minor vulnerable with the intent of sexual assault, and there is no reason to think the intent was ever sexual assault. For one, Sawtooth didn't make the relationship sexual until they were of age. If the intent was sexual assault, then Sawtooth wouldn't have waited. In addition, even when it did become sexual, Sawtooth never forced the other girl to send pictures. Again, why would she do this if the intent was sexual assault?
1 likeSomething that annoys me is just the fact that a lot of people online just see 2 yr + age gap = Grooming.
2 likesI’ve seen it happen time and time again even if the person in question did nothing wrong.
@Nick Ronca - Indeed.
0 likesWhen I was in high school, some of the seniors in my class were 19 - if they'd repeated a grade or started school a year late. And nobody would have considered it especially remarkable (much less pedo!) if a high school senior were to date a high school sophomore. The cancellation of Sawtooth based on this was COMPLETELY UNHINGED, as far as I'm concerned.
@Bluiethis is so true descending happened to call me Carson
0 likesYeah sawtooth is innocent and the victim is also at fault. Said Instagram posts really annoyed me . Almost attention seeking and having too much mental health issues with family and guilting sawtooth in the way of gaslighting.with the obsession with being with a idol over common sense of thinking about if you’re doing is right and if maybe you’re the problem too , mental health, family abuse and school issues , showing so many more things that she is the one at fault more
2 likesI read both sides and tbh the victim (whom I wouldn’t call a victim at this point) just used it for clout like sawtooth got betrayed, Sawtooth is innocent
1 likeI just want his videos back, like his videos made me come up with mlp aus and I loved his reformed vidoes.
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Im to love his vidos
1 likeI didn't know until I went to his chanell to watch a few videos and there was nothing. It explains alot and I hope he comes back because I love his videos so many people do and I hope this works out in his favour
1 likeHmm this analysis was pretty interesting to watch. I’m still not sure who to support here, because I think Sawtooth should’ve backed off when she started admitting feelings. I AM of the opinion that the age gap here is pretty much nonsense. It’s complicated
2 likesI still can't believe this.
4 likesYour kidding me I new he was inosent he would never do something like that.
4 likesI also got accused of something that I wasn't doing wrong! You know what I'm talking about?
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Ah, you can probably relate to Sawtooth, can't you?
4 likes@Comic Field what are you talkin about?
1 likeThis stuff happens all the time, I got accused of raping a girl on another continent while I was homeless on someone's couch. it was like "dude he's literally sleeping homeless right here he didn't get a 2000 dollar plane ticket and touch you lmao"
5 likesBut people scream and yell for attention.
7:10 True. Can't confirm because I'm 2.
1 likeWhy is this Unlisted?
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The one who attacked Sawtooth apologized and hasn't been active since.
2 likes@Comic Field ok thanks
0 likes@Comic Field I can appreciate that thinking, but my thoughts is because this is such a witch-hunty-happy subject, having more voices pointing out where the most of the fucked-uppedness comes from when people have already seen but not paid attention to what happened. Her apology didn't undo anything but save face.
2 likesI believe that the girl definitely had some blame. but he Cleary could have stopped himself but he still didn't he knew she was not the age of consent and you can't just make the excuse that she knew that it was wrong that's not a complete storie he is not innocent but that doesn't mean he should forever be shuned. the girl could have also stopped but she was 15 the mind is not fully developed then she was blinded because she looked up to him.
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A few points:
1 like1) The age of consent is for having sex. They didn't have sex, or even meet in person at all. And they didn't even have an sexually explicit conversations until the younger person turned 18.
2) Age of consent laws typically include a close age exemption, and in most US states the legal consent age is actually 16, not 18. (Many European countries set the age even lower.) In any event, the intent of such laws is to avoid a situation where a much older adult is trying to take advantage of a vulnerable teenager. It's NOT to punish a teenager who gets involved with someone just a few years younger. (Sawtooth was 19 when the correspondence started.)
3) Re: "the mind is not fully developed then" - This is true, but the mind actually isn't fully developed until around the age of 25. So shouldn't this same consideration be extended to Sawtooth as well?
4) While I've always thought of Sawtooth as male (with "BROny," "BRO-hoof," etc.), apparently Sawtooth uses "she" and "they" pronouns.....As I've noted in other comments though, I think most people's visceral anger towards Sawtooth wouldn't be there if they truly viewed Sawtooth as female.
@BikeLion it's still grooming
0 likes@Runic - "Grooming" has a very specific legal definition, which requires the intent to do something illegal with the other person. So if a 40 year old guy talks with a 14 year old girl, gets to know her, etc. with the intent of getting her to meet him in person and have sex, while she's still under age then that's "grooming."
1 likeBut Sawtooth and the younger woman never met in person, let alone had sex, he never asked her to, and they never even talked about sex until after she turned 18. So there's no "grooming" there to speak of.
And again, even if they had had sex, it would have been illegal in most states, due to close age exemptions, or if it were after her 16th birthday (in most states the legal age is 16), etc. So even in this hypothetical (which didn't happen), it STILL wouldn't have been "grooming," since "grooming" is only when there's the intention of getting the younger person to agree to illegal activity with you.
@abrahamhaim okay maybe not grooming in specific but it's what he did that's disgusting ok
0 likes@Runic - What, specifically, did ST do you that you think is "disgusting"?
1 like@Runic It sounds like your definition of "grooming" is "talking to people younger than you." And if you're going to play the "not fully developed brain" card, that actually finishes around the age of 25. So they're both "kids" if you look at it from that point of view. Keep in mind they still weren't trusted by the state to buy cigarettes when this started.
2 likes@lord451 - Technically he could buy legally cigarettes at 19, but not alcohol. But your larger point is 100% correct.
1 likeEveryone's going on about "but she was a minor!" - as if he were 35 or something, when he couldn't even legally buy a beer 🤦♂🤦♂
He'd actually would have been labeled a "minor" too when it came to getting into clubs that card people on the way in.
This whole case is a classic example of today's "woke" ideology going way too far - to the point where a high school senior dating a high school sophomore would somehow be seen as "grooming" or pedo.....It's crazy, and the sad part is that it makes a mockery of real victims of actual abuse by real predators.....When they get lumped in with cases like this, it just becomes a joke 😕
As a victim myself does the victim have any proof i can see? Because i don't see anything???
4 likesEdit: If nobody has proof of this case ALL OF YOU ARE TREATING IT LIKE A FUCKING GAME AND IT'S PISSING ME OFF!
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She doesn't, she just says it happened to my knowledge, but at the same time, she said it's on her Instagram, but I don't have Instagram.
2 likesSorry that happened to you though, and sorry that the "victim" of Sawtooth is basically mocking you and every other victim of grooming with this bs.
@Comic FieldI believe victims, however i can't believe either side just yet, as i stated i have no seen no proof what so ever, and again i have instagram, and i seen no proof, no dms, no rp, no nothing, and saw oh man saw, if they wanted to admit what they done they need to show proof.
0 likesAnd again i can't trust anyone either, so get someone who knows legal matter to look into it, you can't let someone get away with it like "it's no big deal" BECAUSE IT IS A BIG DEAL!!!
@Comic Field Sawtooth themselves ADMITTED to gr00ming the victim. That is not "being innocent". That is them admitting that the rumours are true.
4 likes@Reese They've been manipulated into thinking they were in the wrong by the "victim", the "victim" made a page, and he was scared that if he tried to defend himself, people would hate him, so he surrendered.
4 likes@⛧DarkShadliy⛧ I can understand that, but I can't trust someone without any proof, who just made that account *this month*, they have no other accounts on social media, or any of that.
1 like@Comic FieldTwitter, Tiktok, Instagram is all they have, i seen no proof but words, i am not going to claim their lying, however proof is a must for this type of stuff. i understand how hard it is to come forward i really do, but i wish to wait and see and not judge anyone till then.
0 likesBut the way people are treating it is one-sided, and i understand that i really do but cases like these needs to be checked on both sides not just one and blindly believing either till the matter speaks for itself.
judgment should be made on proof and facts alone, not just words alone. If you want to take this seriously research into the matter.
@⛧DarkShadliy⛧ The problem is that there is nothing to research. Some girl just made accounts, and Sawtooth instantly surrendered because they were scared of their reputation falling, so they confessed to something that never happened. She has no traces of any other account she ever had, she has no proof of DMs, or of anything. I will admit, my words towards her in the video were a bit harsh, but I was angry at the time, so take it with a grain of salt.
1 likeThere isn’t any proof.
2 likes@DarkyBoode32Alright everyone here is a waste of my time then, however none of y'all are looking into it correctly because you don't "meet the requirements" i have a few friends of mine that can look into this matter, and do a deep dive by contacting the victim themselves and saw as well to get the proof and the full story.
0 likesIf anyone isn't going to do that then i don't know what to tell any of you! Get someone that covers these topics, because i am not going to bother my friends if this case is meaningless, do your own deep dive, do your own research, contact saw and the victim privately interview them or something!
@Comic Field - Why is the video unlisted?
0 likes@BikeLion Because she apologized and regretted her decisions, I decided to forgive her and respect that and unlist the video. I don't believe in priviting because that's just stupid, so I decided to unlist it.
1 like@Comic Field - By "she" you mean Sawtooth?.....I'm still not used to referring to Sawtooth as "she," since Sawtooths online persona always seemed more male to me - BROny, BRO-hoof, etc. Also, I think the sort of visceral hatred, rage, and disgust that so many have directed at Sawtooth wouldn't be there if they truly viewed Sawtooth as female.
2 likes....If it were simply a matter of a 19 year old girl who started corresponding with a younger fan, the younger fan developed a crush on her, and the conversations became flirtatious. I think very few people would see this as a big deal at all.
Anyway, my sense is that Sawtooth was bullied into apologizing and making all of his content private, so I'll continue speaking out on Sawtooth's behalf, but I respect your decision to unlist, if that's what you feel is most appropriate.
Stop misgendering Sawtooth.
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I already talked to them about it, this was their response "I am unfortunately aware and sorry I misgendered Sawtooth in the video, I was just angry at the world, angry at the "victim" for everything I said in the video, angry at Sawtooth for submitting to her, angry at myself for not doing this as soon as this situation started, angry that no one else made a video like this, and so my brain unfortunately said "He, because voice", which is obviously a bad thing, but a mistake on my part.".
1 like@Nick Ronca Now the correct course of action to take is to edit all the posts where Sawtooth is misgendered and apologize.
2 likes@Lautaro Roldan Pizzorno You are correct, but this video is unlisted now anyways.
1 like@Lautaro Roldan Pizzorno - I, and I think most others, are still not used to referring to Sawtooth as "she," since Sawtooths online persona always seemed male, with BROny, BRO-hoof, etc. Also, I think the sort of visceral hatred, rage, and disgust that so many have directed at Sawtooth wouldn't be there if they truly viewed Sawtooth as female.
0 likes....If it were simply a matter of a 19 year old girl who started corresponding with a younger fan, the younger fan developed a crush on her, and the conversations became flirtatious. I think very few people would see this as a big deal at all.
When people use labels like "predator," "groomer," etc., it seems to me that they're implicitly stating that they view Sawtooth as male - at least at a deeper, more visceral, level - even if they're nominally (at a much more superficial level) going along with the claimed gender identity and using preferred pronouns and such.
@BikeLion I get some people are not aware, which is why I've been trying to correct some people. If you know already and slip up it's okay but people have the right to correct you. It's not that Sawtooth's persona "seemed male", they simply hadn't come out yet at the time. I don't really see the point that using terms like "brony" and "brohoof" means someone identifies as male (despite obvious etymological root), there's plenty of cases to the contrary, and even if there weren't it really doesn't justify misgendering.
1 likeWhether the reaction would be different if Sawtooth wasn't "viewed as male" is completely irrelevant hypothetical when deciding what pronouns to use for them. I don't think it's very respectful of trans people to say that everyone else is "just superficially respecting their pronouns". It's not like you can read minds to determine that anyway.
@Lautaro Roldan Pizzorno - I don't need to be able to "read minds" to make basic logical deductions. And I know that if people are angry at Sawtooth in a way that they wouldn't be at a 19 year old girl who started talking with a girl a few years older, then they don't truly see Sawtooth as a girl.
0 likesThe visceral rage, loathing, disgust, etc. that's directed at Sawtooth is because ST is biologically male, and the younger person (whom most people (falsely) refer to as "the victim") is biologically female. So I know that it's superficial, because their actions show that they don't see ST as truly female....The same as the fact that women who are purely lesbian don't date "trans women," but do date "trans men" - for reasons that are entirely obvious! Actions speak louder than words.
Most people are gonna try to be polite, and use preferred pronouns, etc. But ultimately, at the end of the day, it's all about biological sex, not "gender identity." And deep down very very few people truly believe the popular "woke" platitudes like "trans-women ARE women" and "trans-men ARE men."
@BikeLion I don't think Sawtooth identifies as a girl. They are non-binary. And then the rest of your comment is transphobic so I don't really see a point in me trying to argue. Strange rant to go on when I just asked people to be respectful of Sawtooth's pronouns. I didn't even mention their actions, which are a separate issue.
0 likes@Lautaro Roldan Pizzorno - It's hardly "a separate issue" when it's the entire reason we're having this conversation in the first place.
0 likesAlso, I know it's trendy for "woke" lefties to use words like "transphobic," but it really makes no sense at all. A phobia is a fear, in particular an irrational fear. And I don't have a fear of transsexuals, transvestites, etc., irrational or otherwise. I simply don't agree with your IDEOLOGY. That's not a phobia.
@BikeLion
2 likesphobia /ˈfəʊbɪə/ noun
an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something.
In this case it's an aversion. I don't think the reason people use he/him pronouns for Sawtooth is that they're seeing her as a predator. I think it's just force of habit because she didn't come out until relatively recently and she was a very popular creator back when she did use he/him pronouns. In either case it's not a valid reason to refuse to use the correct pronouns. That's just being transphobic (once again, an aversion to trans people).
@Lautaro Roldan Pizzorno Yeah I don't like it when transphobes act like phobia only means fear and ignore the part where it is "or adversion" either, it's really annoying.
2 likesLook, this is the reason why meddling with pronouns causes so many problems for speech. As humans, we can generally determine biological sex based off of a variety of factors and thus have spent years of our lives building up this radar of being able to determine one's sex and thus using the pronouns we naturally associate with such. Everyone knows that Sawtooth is biologically male. It's not hateful to acknowledge that.
0 likesWhen we have situations like these that involved more than one biological sex, then our speech does rely on differentiating our uses of pronouns so we don't have to constantly clarify the names of who we're talking about. Whenever talking about this situation, I refer to Sawtooth with Male pronouns because it would be too confusing if I was saying "she" and not referring to Ash or "they" and not referring to the both of them. "He" is perfect in letting the reader know exactly who we're talking about at any given time. Any reasonable person would understand that this isn't a hateful taunt or a dehuminsation. It's simply a way of language.
@The Black Queen It's not confusing if you're decent at wording your statements (or just call each by their names). And even if it was, that's still not an excuse to misgender someone. Calling Sawtooth "he" is disrespecting their pronouns, regardless of how "perfect" you may think it is in expressing your message. I would not call it a "hateful taunt" but putting your needs before referring to a trans person's correctly is not exactly respectful.
0 likes@The Black Queen "Everyone knows that Sawtooth is biologically male. It's not hateful to acknowledge that.", it could or could not be. In it of itself it's not hateful to acknowledge that. However, the moment you suggest that "Sawtooth is biologically male and therefore they're a man", that is when it becomes hateful. Because it suggests that her gender identity needs to line up with her biological sex. As for "I refer to Sawtooth with Male pronouns because it would be too confusing if I was saying "she" and not referring to Ash or "they" and not referring to the both of them. "He" is perfect in letting the reader know exactly who we're talking about at any given time.", yes he would be easier for people to know who you're talking about, but the problem with the confusion that arises when talking about two people who use she/her pronouns will always arise no matter which two people you're talking about. As far as they goes, people use the singular they all the time even if they don't realize it. Plus for either one if you're using she/her or they/them for Sawtooth you can always just clarify you are referring to Sawtooth and people will know for all future reference. Point is this. If you refer to Sawtooth as a he when speaking privately to someone because you care more about being clear in who you're talking about than using a persons pronouns who isn't even in the room or chat room with you, then I can understand that and no one can force you otherwise. But if you're talking about her on a public space online then you should use her pronouns, and if you need to, make it clear who you're talking about. Again no one can force you too, but it's common courtesy to call people by what they want to be called by if long if it isn't hurting anyone else by doing so.
0 likes@Lautaro Roldan Pizzorno "putting your needs before referring to a trans person's correctly is not exactly respectful.", I agree but whether or not I do will depend on what my needs are. Like if I'm severely dehydrated and someone was withholding water from me and I had to misgender the trans person to get the water, I am choosing the water over not misgendering the trans person. Of course most of the time I won't misgender a trans person.
0 likes@Nick Ronca This very extreme hypothetical example just makes you sound like a weirdo. Why do people go to such lengths to argue using the most ridiculous scenarios when all I said was "don't misgender a trans person"?
0 likes@Lautaro Roldan Pizzorno I'm not going to constantly refer to Sawtooth as Sawtooth in every sentence. Y'all need to stop forcing your belief system on everybody. It's not disrespectful, nor is it hateful. Yes, I'm putting my preference of sentence structure above the need to be politically correct. If you have a problem with that, that's your issue alone and I don't have to cater to it.
0 likes@The Black Queen I was only providing the option of referring to them by name if you simply couldn't think of any other way to phrase your statements, options that they certainly do exist (and that is what I have been doing throughout this whole thread. Notice how you've been able to follow along? I digress). Gendering someone correctly (whether cis or trans) is not "following a belief system", it is simply the bare minimum of respect. Refusing to correctly gender a trans person is indeed transphobic though (not simply "politically incorrect", whatever that means). It might be your prerrogative but be aware of the fact that is what you're doing and people will react accordingly.
0 likes@Lautaro Roldan Pizzorno No, it literally is a belief system, based in the concept of gender identity being separate from sex. That is a subjective ideology and thus shall be treated as such like any other philosophy, religion, or set of values and beliefs. I'll use the pronouns when not in serious situations like these because there is a line to be drawn and I will prioritise the conversation over feelings. I've given you my reasoning for using the pronouns according to his biological sex because that's how I chose to go about the conversation. Don't like it? Deal with it.
0 likes@Lautaro Roldan Pizzorno Sorry for the three week late response but "This is a very extreme hypothetical example", dude that was literally the entire point shm. I said "the scenario depends" to make it seem like I would follow it up by something transphobic, only to subvert the expectation by mentioning a very extreme scenario. Also don't you think if I actually were transphobic, I wouldn't have come up with something that extreme? My comment was literally "it depends if my life is on the line then I'll misgender someone on that one specific scenario, otherwise I won't" and your response was literally "why are you coming up with extreme scenarios to justify misgendering someone?" even though I literally never said that. The point wasn't to justify misgendering a transgender person, the point was to show how extreme of a scenario it would take for me to do so because I'm not transphobic. It was supposed to be a half joke. Although if I knew that you weren't going to like the joke I wouldn't have made it. I'm sorry for sounding like a "weirdo", please forgive me.
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